PLC Programming.... or what... cars & motorcycles?

I'd agree with that , but who was derogatory ? registered or unregistered ? There is no need to belittle anothers skill or achievements (actually , I don't feel belittled , as I am confident of my abilities - you can only be belittled if you are inferior ) . I happen to believe that good software is an art he doesn't - however , I do prefer not to have anyone talk down to me .
 
I completely give up here . People start rudeness and don't like a reply - if you don't want someone to be rude , don't insult their intelligence Tom , you can disagree with my opinion by all means as is your right , but :-

"I gave up on showing off my work to others shortly after completing potty training. If I have offended or belittled anyone, perhaps you should ignore my posts."
is plain and simply ignorant - you mean you wouldn't reply if someone spoke to you like that ?

Better my browser stays well and truly pointed somewhere else .
 
Hmmmmmm,

Seems like Casey's previous thread on registration was timely.

And it sound's like someone has a chip on their shoulder. One doesn't have to be rude to get their point across. Whether you agree with someone or not there is always an effective way to convey your thoughts and opinion without having to lower yourself. In reading ushidayo posts, he probably did push some people's buttons, however, why lower yourself to his level?

If your primary goal in doing anything is to impress others, then you are doing it for the wrong reasons.

To answer your question...no I wouldn't respond to someone in the same negative manner that they had used towards me. Just because someone else provides a rude comment, doesn't mean it is now open season for rude comments. You do not have to reply or you can reply to offer your view on their comment, but again, it can be done in a professional manner.

Sorry to change the subject, but when one hides behind the "unregistered" user, there is no accountability to anything that is said. If you truly want to be a credible asset to the forum, register and become part of the community.

God Bless,
 
Unregistered said:
you mean you wouldn't reply if someone spoke to you like that ?

There are different ways you can choose to reply. Unregistered chose the "nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah nyah, I can be just as rude as you can" model.

"Art" is a pretty subjective term. Ushidayo doesn't think PLC programming qualifies as art. I don't see anything but ritual in a Japanese tea ceremony and Kabuki elicits a big yawn from me.

I prefer to think of controls as a craft that may approach the level of art when practiced by a talented crafstperson. Art can be appreciated even by a non-artist. Excellence in the practice of a craft will generally only be appreciated by your fellow craftspersons.
 
I initially didn't agree with Terry's use of the term art until Tom set me straight. The first definitions fit the function of programming pretty well. I still don't agree with the use of art in aesthetic terms. Aesthetic art is only art if the intent is aesthetic. If something just happens to have aesthetic value it is not necessarily art. I think hard maple trees are aesthetically pleasing but I don't consider them art.

I believe Terry's most important point, intended or not, is that most any program is doomed to failure if the approporiate and required sensors are not present on the machine. Inferring information simply from expected machine state or a combination of only loosely related sensors doesn't allow you to do any true alarming. You need to be able to measure what you expect to happen if you have any hope of determining that it didn't happen. So really the art (as in expertise) is not in the plc programming but in the base control design.

Keith
 
Art

ART: a branch of learning that depends on more of a special practice than on general principals. In the context of programming there is a creative element. Each of us will solve a problem in code differently. Also, if you see enough of a person's programming, it is possible to see their code in a larger program. People have their favorite way to do things and that is how they program. It is like a signature. I think the development of a program is art, getting the program to work with the least amount of code in a way that can be understood by maintenance, this is not art. Its like taking a picture, the art is the "seeing" what could be a great picture. Taking the image, using photoshop to crop and adjust the light and colour levels to catch a person's eye, is not. Hey thats my opinion! :) Have a great weekend!!
Bruce.
 
As a Field Tech I constantly run into a wide variety of meanings for words and how machines function. I particularly liked how it was pointed out the it was the fourth definition that actually tied ART to what was being discussed.

Many words have many meanings, different companies use the same words and mean totally different functins on machinery. For those of us working in automation, it is most certainly an ART to be able to readily understand all definitions of any word and properly use it in a manner to which the end user is familiar and comfortable with.

I have the greatest respect and a touch of jealousy for those that can take a blank page and create things on it. It takes both talent and skills to accomplish these things.

Remember "BEAUTY IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER". Is not all that is beautiful an art form?
 
Originally poasted by Leadfoot:

Remember "BEAUTY IS IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER". Is not all that is beautiful an art form?

As you said above it all depends on interpretation. Do you consider plants and animals works of art? They can and often are beautiful. But I don't consider them art. I consider them things of beauty.

The definitions that Tom listed all seemed to have one thing in common: intent. That is where I draw my personal line. If one intends the outcome to be judged primarily on aesthetics it would be art (in the aesthetic context). Then again I've never seen any definition of aesthetic art that requires intent. Like I said, that's my personal line.
Keith
 
Hey, Subway has sandwich artists.

Every job you can think of could be considered art. Laying brick, mowing a yard, making a pizza.

Sometimes after I take a big poop I look back into the bowl and say "dang that is beautiful".

I don’t think writing PLC code is art, it is more utilitarian. But well written code is much easier to trouble shoot.



Unregistered said:
And before your bed :-

As the Mayor of Hiroshima said:-

" What the f**king hell was th..."

Ignorant jabs like this is why you should have to register to post.
 
ushidayo said:
I still find it hard to understand why people believe that writing a PLC program well is art...

To those that find PLC programs aesthetically pleasing, I suggest taking a vacation.

I love ya ushidayo!

At least you are not brown nozing anyone.

As for the Art factor, I would perhaps use this word but find The Zen of PLC programming much more suited.

Art, in our case is referred has all that makes the end result (i.e. the working code).

I allways use the term ZEN because it mean "BEING ONE WITH..." and this is th thrue nature of a respectable programmer.

To me it is not art but years of practice, study, respect of our own limitation and the world that surround us (in this case, the system, the management, the cost, the operators, the time, the futur, and more).

When one can be humble to the point where he is aware and be humble to the point where he is in tune with his inner and outer capacity only then can he acheive the Zen state.

He can be one with the PLC, the process, the management, the needs of all.

I always liked TW's post because he often uses his "Be the PLC" approach and for me this is Zen.

Wether he likes it or not he is a Zen programmer.

A few years back I had to do a job for a very special guy. I was honored to do it and would have done it for free (almost) but this job that was ready for delevry after 8 weeks and stayed in my shop for 8 months (cargo ship delay).

So I had a lot of spare time to play :)

After 3 months I started to modify the code. Just for the fun of it. Just to make it nicer.

I would find small pieces that I would rewrite to make them look better.

The end results was working the same. Not better.

When this guy started the process he sent me an email that said "Nice code Pierre".

He is a gran master coder of the older days.

I still sometimes look at them 400 pages of code. I beleive I achaeive Zen with that one.

I often whish I could have unlimited time and access to systems I program.

One clue on your Zen statue.

Ya know when nothing works and everyone has tryed and the manufacturer tells you it should work.

You change one parameter out of hundreds for no apparent reasons but the fact that you thought it was necessairy and then everything fall in its rightfull place and the system works!

Zen my friend.

Real good troubleshooters will tell you that its often how they find things. It a mix of experience and a lot more that cannot be logically explained.
 
Pierre said:
Wether he likes it or not he is a Zen programmer.
Then I guess we'll have to all chip in and buy Terry one of these... ;)

zen.jpg

🍻

-Eric
 

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