Losing VFDs on power-up

bendanator

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Dec 2018
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Hello everyone,

Need help with an on going problem. Over the last year we have lost the same powerflex 40 drive 4 times now. It always happens on power-up after maintenance is done. The VFD seems to have no life. No lite up screen or anything. Wondering if anyone had ideas of things to look at now or more things I can look at when the next one blows. It is next to several other powerflex 40's that don't ever seem to have a problem. Also it seems to blow the capacitors each time. I'm truly at a loss on what to do. Thanks in advance.
 
look at the wiring, fusing, and associated devices for each drive and see if there is a difference.
what is the voltage of the units?
how are the drives powered up when you turn the power on?
is the drive with the issue the first one to be powered up or do they all get powered up together?
how is the drive wired in the panel? by that I mean is there any conduits on top of the panel that could let water / moisture in and get the drive wet?
is the panel dusty?
if you find no difference in wiring, moisture, dust, you may want to add a line induction filter to eliminate spikes.
regards,
james
 
Whenever I've seen this kind of surge damage, it usually involves a client having killed main power to one or more MCCs for an outage and then having re-closed the main afterward with all of the MCC circuit breakers turned on. All circuit breakers should be turned off before re-energizing the main.

It is curious that it would always affect the same drive, though.
 
I had a similar problem on 6 AB drives, one would fail on power up of the panel, it was not always the same one however, we replaced them with Mitsubishi drives & never had another problem, not saying AB drives are **** but we did not change wiring and we did seem to have a greater proportion of AB drives go down compared to others (again this seemed to be on power down or up. We also had an issue on the same machine where the panelview + HMI would fail (in every case it was the power board), over a two year period we had at least 4 units fail, This machine was from the States & I have no idea why but on an e-stop the power was removed from the HMI (24v) and 240v from the PLC, I modified it so only the outputs would be isolated and no problems after that. It does appear that AB stuff does not like powering down as much as others, this may be down to power supply design.
 
Has the VFD been replaced or you just replaced the Caps
it sounds like the precharge bypass relay is stuck closed
in that case on power up the full line voltage and current are applied directly to the caps
the inrush current t\will destroy the caps
your best option is to replace the VFD with a new one
 
By blown caps, do you mean the DC bus caps? Or little caps on the PC board?

If it’s the DC bus caps, do you have a line contactor ahead of the drive by chance?
 
Do you know if the site electrical system is grounded or ungrounded? We had a similar problem when new drives were installed on our ungrounded system and the phase to ground MOV jumper was left in. Check the manual under AC Supply Considerations.
 
Do you know if the site electrical system is grounded or ungrounded? We had a similar problem when new drives were installed on our ungrounded system and the phase to ground MOV jumper was left in. Check the manual under AC Supply Considerations.

Out of interest, why is your system ungrounded.?
It must be relatively common for it to have a special mention in the manual.
 
A lot of older manufacturing systems were ungrounded probably because they are more fault tolerate. I'm sure someone on here can elaborate on the real reason.

For example, we had large sump pumps that would ground out and still work. We had ground lights showing we had a. Issue but the pump would not trip at the first sign of a fault. A grounded system would trip the main GFI and you would be down until it was corrected. I think newer systems have high resistive grounds that do somewhat the same thing.

It's actually strange when taking measurements to ground and you see 230v, 480v and 0v but everything is still running. They definitely are more dangerous and you need a maintenance crew that understands it.

We had a pump in a basement that was almost under water and it was running. Someone shut off the motor then tried to restart it and it blew the windings.
 
Out of interest, why is your system ungrounded.?
It must be relatively common for it to have a special mention in the manual.

As far as commonality my experience has been on systems built before the 80's. See Kev77's response below. The first ground fault is not a problem (before modern electronics). In theory this allowed a 24/7 365 facility the ability to continue operating. The classic application would be a modern war ship where the ability to continue operations was more important than saving a few lives from shock hazard.

A lot of older manufacturing systems were ungrounded probably because they are more fault tolerate. I'm sure someone on here can elaborate on the real reason.

For example, we had large sump pumps that would ground out and still work. We had ground lights showing we had a. Issue but the pump would not trip at the first sign of a fault. A grounded system would trip the main GFI and you would be down until it was corrected. I think newer systems have high resistive grounds that do somewhat the same thing.

Where I work we have the high resistance ground systems on 3 of our 480V systems. These are Wye systems with a large resistor tied to the X0 terminal then to ground. the resistor limits the ground fault to around 5 amps. We also have a delta system with a zig zag transformer attached to the three corners of the delta and this also limits the ground current to around 5 amps.

One of the consequences of the high resistance ground is you need to remove the jumpers that connect the metal oxide varsistors to ground because if you don't they will try to become the ground point (during a ground fault episode) for the entire system sacrificing themselves in the process, then spraying their guts on the rest of the components in the VFD's

you need a maintenance crew that understands it.
.

One of the stranger things I have noticed is the zig zag transformer system seems to make the PF 755's think that the are being feed with single phase.

bendanator,
Several of the previous respondents have suggested many things to check out. Some might not seem obvious to you.

We had a similar problem when new drives were installed on our ungrounded system and the phase to ground MOV jumper was left in.

He is suggesting if the panel was installed with jumpers removed did you remove the jumpers when you replaced the drives?

If it’s the DC bus caps, do you have a line contactor ahead of the drive by chance?

The period of powerup in a VFD is a very stressful time. If the contactor is cycled very often the front end of the drive will be short lived. Another problem happens when the drive is running and there is a short time of no or low power input, the precharge circuit may not have time to reset and when power returns the caps will draw an almost infinite amount of power thus destroying some of the components, wires, printed circuit traces, caps, diodes. Most times this can be solved by a line choke/ filter on the VFD power input.

Although somewhat unlikely, is it possible all of the replacements were purchased around 2005? If so then this may be relevant. http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=67658
 
Ungrounded delta systems were brought into prominence during WWI and again in WWII, because of what I call a "Damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead!" approach to wartime manufacturing. The first ground fault would not shut down manufacturing because you went for an ungrounded delta to a corner grounded delta. When I started in industrial work at a Steel Mill in the late 70s, our mill had been built in WWII and was ungrounded delta. We had "ground lights" in the electric shop that would tell us, by virtue of one bulb glowing less brightly (or out), that there was a ground fault on that phase. But we would have no idea where. So we would jump into golf carts and drive around looking for a column of smoke, or more likely, a production manager desperate for an electrician.


Fun times...
 

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