Rewinder Machine Upgrade Question

Critt · Dec 19, 2013

Hello and Happy Holidays

One of our customers is upgrading a winding machine that has seen better days. The machine is currently equipped with 2 DC motors complete with old DC drives. One for the rewinder and the other for the Bridle feeder. My question is would you upgrade the DC drives to current technology (i.e. AB power flex DC Drives) or remove the DC drives and motors completely and go with Servo technology. Does DC drives give the user the ability to control speed torque as well as Servo?

The machine currently doesn't work and is going to be upgraded with new PLC and HMI.

Looking forward to everyone's thoughts.

Critt · Dec 19, 2013

Sorry forgot to say the machine is a Ruesch Traverse Sidewinder
here is a pic of what it looks like:
http://www.machinesales.com/machinery/recoilers/0000001099

andypot · Dec 19, 2013

If the motors need replacing I would go for AC drives, something like AB PowerFlex 755's.

strantor · Dec 19, 2013

If you're refurbishing instead of buying new, then I assume cost is high on the list of importance. If it were me, and the dc drives and motors are in good shape, I would keep them. They are more than capable.

Critt · Dec 19, 2013

Cost is an import factor for the customer. The other issue is the material is tricky to wind. They also want to oscillate the winder so I think I will be controlling Toque.

Critt · Dec 19, 2013

Looking into this more:

Traverse (Moves the Rewind core back and forth)
Hydraulic Cylinder with Position
- Servo Valve
- Feedback position

Analog Signal for line speed

Bridle Drive (5HP DC Motor with Emerson ES2600 DC Drive)
- Tach Feedback
- Analog Speed Ref
- Drive Amps

Rewind Drive (5HP DC Motor with Emerson ES2600 DC Drive)
- Analog Speed Ref
- Rewind Torque
- Drive Amps
- Encoder

strantor · Dec 19, 2013

Critt said:
the material is tricky to wind. They also want to oscillate the winder so I think I will be controlling Toque.

Can you elaborate?

Critt · Dec 19, 2013

They currently roll the material on a machine that leaves gaps as the rewinder winds the material. The finished roll looks messy and some end users won't accept the roll.
As the rewinder winds the roll a hydraulic cylinder (traverse) moves the core so the wind oscillates. (Kind of line fishing line on a reel).

I'm thinking I am going to upgrade the PLC (Compact Logic) and possible the old Drives to power flex DC drives and keep the DC motors.

strantor · Dec 19, 2013

You aren't providing a wealth of information, so I'll let my mind fill in the gaps with conjecture and you can correct me where I'm wrong. Do I understand the following correctly?:
The web material is copper strip/tape, between .25" and 1.875" wide
Traverse is handled not by a flying guide, but by shifting the takeup reel side-to-side hydraulically.
Lay pitch & other parameters are entered into a proprietary keypad device for which there is limited information and will be a hassle to incorporate in future modifications.
The issue (the reason for modification) is that the lay pitch is inconsistent, creating gaps and overlaps which deform the web material.
The takeup drive has an encoder that may or may not be used for drive feedback, but is definitely used for lay pitch.
The hydraulic valve controller accepts 2 channels of 0-100% duty cycle PWM
The Bridle (i'm not familiar with that term) is the same thing as a capstan/catapuller/nip roll; a constant speed device that feeds material into the winder
There is a dancer between the bridle and the winder.
The spindle speed of the winder is controlled by the dancer, and the bridle is controlled by a speed pot.
The purpose of the PLC in this upgrade will be to accept quadrature pulse inputs from the spindle encoder, encoded absolute position signal from the cylinder scale, analog line speed input, and user-entered width/thickness parameters, and provide 2 directional channels of 0-100% duty cycle PWM output to the hydraulic valve.

Am I close?

Critt · Dec 19, 2013

strantor said:
You aren't providing a wealth of information, so I'll let my mind fill in the gaps with conjecture and you can correct me where I'm wrong.
Sorry for the gaps....
Do I understand the following correctly?:
The web material is copper strip/tape, between .25" and 1.875" wide
Traverse is handled not by a flying guide, but by shifting the takeup reel side-to-side hydraulically.
Correct with the hydraulic Trasverse shifting side to side, Material is steel, Material width of .025"-.25" with thickness of .062 to .080"
Lay pitch & other parameters are entered into a proprietary keypad device for which there is limited information and will be a hassle to incorporate in future modifications.
Correct, also this proprietary device looks like it has seen way better days!!
The issue (the reason for modification) is that the lay pitch is inconsistent, creating gaps and overlaps which deform the web material.
True and the machine is inoperable
The takeup drive has an encoder that may or may not be used for drive feedback, but is definitely used for lay pitch.
The hydraulic valve controller accepts 2 channels of 0-100% duty cycle PWM
The Bridle (i'm not familiar with that term) is the same thing as a capstan/catapuller/nip roll; a constant speed device that feeds material into the winder
There is a dancer between the bridle and the winder.
The spindle speed of the winder is controlled by the dancer, and the bridle is controlled by a speed pot.
The purpose of the PLC in this upgrade will be to accept quadrature pulse inputs from the spindle encoder, encoded absolute position signal from the cylinder scale, analog line speed input, and user-entered width/thickness parameters, and provide 2 directional channels of 0-100% duty cycle PWM output to the hydraulic valve.

WOW you are good!!

Am I close?

Critt · Dec 19, 2013

http://inv.mcmillanconroy.com/q/webinv/005249=p,,0R0997,,p,,,20126598,a

Helliana · Dec 19, 2013

From the information you have given, I would look into a Powerflex 755 with an AC motor with an encoder.

strantor · Dec 19, 2013

Ok, well there's your problem. Your machine is spec'd for .25" to 1.875" and you're running .025" to .25". Below the minimum spec by a factor of 10. Are you sure the machine is mechanically nimble enough to accommodate the newer tighter tolerance desired even given a brand new whamodyne control system? That would be a lot of wasted money if not.

Anyway, I would look at the Omron CP1H for the PLC; plenty of high speed digital ins & outs, PWM outs, easy connectivity to an HMI. For the drives, I still say leave the DC if it's got any years left in it. The rotational axes don't need to be all that precise. They should be able to run whatever speed they want, and the traverse is the follower. The traverse is where all the precision is needed. I'm not a big hydraulics guy, so I don't know what I'm talking about, but I don't think a hydraulic solution is going to cut it. You might have to transition to a servo controlled linear actuator.

I'm a little concerned about my comments that don't have a red comment beneath them; are they correct, or do you just not know whether they're correct, or what?

Critt · Dec 19, 2013

I think I left out a very important factor .... This machine has never ran for this customer as it was bought used but doesn't work. I think (from the few mins I looked at it) that one of the DC drives are dead, The computer/PLC System is pretty much screwed and only the hyd pump works.. well turns on.

The material is small and the customer is hoping the upgraded controls will allow the smaller material to run.

DickDV · Dec 19, 2013

I would base my decision on whether the machine is in continuous service and whether the DC motors are in good condition. If not in continuous service and the DC motors are in good condition, I would probably leave the DC motors in place and put in a modern regenerative reversing digital DC drive. Bardac comes to mind first. Otherwise, I'd use a high performance sensorless vector AC drive with TENV AC motors good to double base speed (probably 120hz).

At 5hp, auxiliary blowers are nothing but a maintenance nuisance.

With sensorless vector, center-driven software, and a good high performance drive like the ABB ACS800 or ACS850, you'd have a reliable efficient system with no motor encoders and no auxiliary blowers.

Servos are overkill for this application.

Rewinder Machine Upgrade Question

Critt

Member

Critt

Member

andypot

Member

strantor

Member

Critt

Member

Critt

Member

strantor

Member

Critt

Member

strantor

Member

Critt

Member

Critt

Member

Helliana

Member

strantor

Member

Critt

Member

DickDV

Member

Similar Topics