Intermittent failures on PanelView 2711-B5A2X. Replacement 2711-B5A2 was ordered.

alf61334 · Jan 20, 2022

Hi all, first post here, but far from my first visit...

Anyway, we have a failing 2711-B5A2X. If/when it is powered off, it can take up to an hour to get the keypad working again. The guys are able to do this by wiggling the ribbon cable connecting the keypad to the board and hoping it sits in just the right position...

Since that is not sustainable, we were tasked with replacing the unit. I had someone order a replacement for us, and we received the new unit. I realized that it is not a B5A2X though, just a B5A2.

Looking further, the failing model is serial H, rev B, firmware 4.41.
The replacement we received is serial B, rev D, firmware 1.07.

Is it even worth it to try to get this running? Or should we just order a more appropriate replacement? I'm in pharma, so let's just say materials cost is of much smaller consequence than using endless engineering time or having to mess with things that will not be clear, concise, and reliable in the future.

We also have a lack of equipment here to connect to older things. At my old integrator job, I had a whole bag of converters and adapters, along with a suite of VMs with all kinds of licenses. In this case though, if we could get one of those old memory card transfer things, even if its hundreds of dollars, that would be our preferred route. Just trying to add some context.

Thank you.

geniusintraining · Jan 20, 2022

Welcome officially to the site

The X just means its been sent to AB and repaired, so they should be fine... that said is it a new unit? these have not been made for YEARS so either you got ripped or its a rebuilt unit by a 3rd party seller selling it as new and since your other has a newer firmware I would think this is the case, how much did you pay?

EDIT: Also since this is a DH485 I would think its setup to communicate to a 5/03? if you are thinking about replacing/upgrading odds are you will also need to update the 5/03

alf61334 · Jan 20, 2022

Also, I just contacted Radwell, and they are giving us the option to exchange. The newest they have is also a series H, but has a firmware 3.x. I will get more information shortly, but I'm guessing that is the first thing we should do.

I am still open to hearing some options of how we could get the old project out and into the replacement unit. Any combination of cables, software, memory cards, etc would be helpful to know.

Thank you.

geniusintraining · Jan 20, 2022

alf61334 said:
Also, I just contacted Radwell....

Therein lies the problem...

alf61334 · Jan 20, 2022

Thank you.

For a little more context,
The 'X' part number is currently running in the machine. I just started here in July, so for all I know, that is the original or even 15th HMI in that thing.

The older one, series B, firmware 1.07 is the one from Radwell, and they are happy to take it back.

I also hear your feelings about getting ripped off, and apply the same mentality to my personal life. At work though, not my cash, not my problem. The paperwork, conversations/emails, and hoops that I would need to jump through to get a new vendor approved in our system would far outweigh the annoyance of getting the correct part for a premium price. And we can order from Radwell for now. Pharma life...

Another fun thing... I can't find any backups for the PLC or HMI. It is a SLC 5/03, communicating DH485, and its red battery light is on. I strongly recommended that we upgrade soon.

All that said, the machine needs to run for now. Forgetting premium prices and using at little engineering hours as possible, what would be the easiest path forward? Grab that firmware 3.xx from radwell and maybe pick up one of the transfer memory card things?

geniusintraining · Jan 20, 2022

alf61334 said:
Another fun thing... I can't find any backups for the PLC or HMI. It is a SLC 5/03, communicating DH485, and its red battery light is on. I strongly recommended that we upgrade soon.

First... upload and get backups of the programs that are running, then replace the battery

https://www.plccable.com/allen-bradley-slc-plc-battery-1747-ba-1769-ba-free-shipping-1747ba/

And if Radwell has a version that matches yours then yes tell them you want to exchange for the match or newer

alf61334 said:
At work though, not my cash, not my problem.

Try changing that to the same as your personal life... you will go a LOT further in life.

plvlce · Jan 20, 2022

The one with 1.0 firmware *might* be able to work; you'd need to open the file up in Panelbuilder32, downgrade the selected revision, and see if the conversion detected errors due to unsupported features.

I'd definitely recommend just getting a more recent one since that's an option, especially since iirc firmware that old can't be upgraded.

Regarding getting the program off the old one there's two basic options

1) Memory Card. The Panelview accepts a PCMCIA card, but it must be ATA compatible (iirc very early Panelviews used linear flash cards instead). I use a 32mb CompactFlash card in an adapter.

You'll need to access the configuration screen -- if there's not a button somewhere in your application to do so then try pressing the left and right arrow keys simultaneously, that should open it unless whoever created the application disabled the feature.

Once in configuration one of the first options should be for the memory card, from which you can save the current application and then dismount the card. You can then plug the card into your computer (likely using an appropriate USB adapter) and make a copy for backup.

Loading into the new Panelview is just a reverse of the process; plug the card in and then load from it instead of save to it.

2) Connection from your computer to the DH485 network (or possibly directly to the Panelview via DH485). The exact details of how you plug in may vary based on your setup; consult chapter 12 of the manual for cable numbers but replace the 1747-PIC it mentions with a 1747-UIC adapter.

You can upload/download from within the Panelbuilder32 software; there may be a separate upload/download utility but if so I've never used it.

Note that regardless of how you transfer the file, if the new HMI is a different firmware from the old one you will likely have to open up and convert the application in Panelbuilder32

EDIT: Since your original firmware is 4 and the firmware you are getting from Radwell is 3.x, you will definitely need to convert the application (or find someone to do it for you).

alf61334 · Jan 20, 2022

geniusintraining said:
First... upload and get backups of the programs that are running, then replace the battery

https://www.plccable.com/allen-bradley-slc-plc-battery-1747-ba-1769-ba-free-shipping-1747ba/

And if Radwell has a version that matches yours then yes tell them you want to exchange for the match or newer

Try changing that to the same as your personal life... you will go a LOT further in life.

On the first point, the plan is definitely to get a copy of the logic out ASAP. Just need to know what cables I will need. Also, of the 100+ PLCs here, this is the only one that isn't Ethernet or DeviceNet, and people are already complaining about how old and confusing DeviceNet is. It will be really easy to get a project together to replace it with a Compact or something. Then we can historize and trend everything on our IP21 server as well. I'll see if I can convince anyone to mess with the battery too. The mentality here will likely not want me to power the thing down.

On the second point, its been a bit of an adjustment, coming from a smaller integration company for the majority of career. I've been told several times that the money is not an issue. It's all about what is the quickest and easiest. If I can do something myself or save some money hunting for something in my personal life, I'm happy to do it. The priorities here are just different. It is what it is.

alf61334 · Jan 20, 2022

plvlce said:
The one with 1.0 firmware *might* be able to work; you'd need to open the file up in Panelbuilder32, downgrade the selected revision, and see if the conversion detected errors due to unsupported features.

I'd definitely recommend just getting a more recent one since that's an option, especially since iirc firmware that old can't be upgraded.

Regarding getting the program off the old one there's two basic options

1) Memory Card. The Panelview accepts a PCMCIA card, but it must be ATA compatible (iirc very early Panelviews used linear flash cards instead). I use a 32mb CompactFlash card in an adapter.

You'll need to access the configuration screen -- if there's not a button somewhere in your application to do so then try pressing the left and right arrow keys simultaneously, that should open it unless whoever created the application disabled the feature.

Once in configuration one of the first options should be for the memory card, from which you can save the current application and then dismount the card. You can then plug the card into your computer (likely using an appropriate USB adapter) and make a copy for backup.

Loading into the new Panelview is just a reverse of the process; plug the card in and then load from it instead of save to it.

2) Connection from your computer to the DH485 network (or possibly directly to the Panelview via DH485). The exact details of how you plug in may vary based on your setup; consult chapter 12 of the manual for cable numbers but replace the 1747-PIC it mentions with a 1747-UIC adapter.

You can upload/download from within the Panelbuilder32 software; there may be a separate upload/download utility but if so I've never used it.

Note that regardless of how you transfer the file, if the new HMI is a different firmware from the old one you will likely have to open up and convert the application in Panelbuilder32

EDIT: Since your original firmware is 4 and the firmware you are getting from Radwell is 3.x, you will definitely need to convert the application (or find someone to do it for you).

Thank you.

We will get the newest revision they can come up with for us and go from there. I think we will put in for a project to upgrade to a newer PanelView, but things don't exactly move at light speed here.

I'd love if we could use the card, but thinking more about it, we would want a backup file as well. I was looking at the UIC version of the cable, and we should be able to get one of those and get it to work. I know we have PanelBuilder on our main programming servers, but our programming laptop with the serial port, I will need to check.

I will look into what it takes to update firmware on the new PanelView next. I've done it on newer equipment using controlflash, but this older stuff might not be the same.

Thank you for taking the time to help out!

plvlce · Jan 20, 2022

alf61334 said:
It will be really easy to get a project together to replace it with a Compact or something. Then we can historize and trend everything on our IP21 server as well. I'll see if I can convince anyone to mess with the battery too. The mentality here will likely not want me to power the thing down.

If you can guarantee it won't be shut off or lose power until you've got everything prepared to replace it then you can get away with not touching the battery. Otherwise it's likely better to do a controlled shutdown for battery replacement now* rather than have unscheduled, unplanned downtime until you can re-download the program.

*by 'now' I of course mean 'once you get it backed up'

drbitboy · Jan 20, 2022

alf61334 said:
I've been told several times that the money is not an issue.

Then perhaps an interesting query would be why there was not a spare on a shelf, an (old?) computer with the software and cables ready to work the problem, and a document describing how it all fits together?

And what other processes in this facility are a single point of failure away from a similar crisis?

plvlce · Jan 20, 2022

alf61334 said:
Thank you.

We will get the newest revision they can come up with for us and go from there. I think we will put in for a project to upgrade to a newer PanelView, but things don't exactly move at light speed here.

To my knowledge AB does not currently produce any PanelView that support DH-485. If you're upgrading the SLC to a logix just get an ethernet PV to go with at.

I'd love if we could use the card, but thinking more about it, we would want a backup file as well. I was looking at the UIC version of the cable, and we should be able to get one of those and get it to work.

Get a USB adapter for whatever type of card you end up using and you can just grab a copy of the file right off it for your backup.

You'll probably want the 1747-UIC for backing up the SLC anyways though.

I know we have PanelBuilder on our main programming servers, but our programming laptop with the serial port, I will need to check.

The 1747-UIC will use a USB port, you won't be using a computer serial port.

I will look into what it takes to update firmware on the new PanelView next. I've done it on newer equipment using controlflash, but this older stuff might not be the same.

It's not -- you'll either put the firmware update file on your memory card and then boot the HMI with it plugged in, or download a firmware file to the HMI using a utility provided on the Panelbuilder install CD. (it's a different file depending on which way you do it too...)

To make things worse, the install CD only comes with specific firmware revisions. I find the whole process a pain and when possible I prefer to just convert the application to the appropriate firmware revision instead.

EDIT: See this thread for somewhat more detail, including a couple specifications for the memory card that I hadn't remembered offhand.

Thank you for taking the time to help out!

You're welcome

alf61334 · Jan 20, 2022

plvlce, for sure we will get an upload ASAP. After that, I will pitch the upgrade project. Should be an easy justification, we usually have trouble using all of our budget.

drbitboy, you are not wrong. This is all part of why I was hired. The organization is kind of a mess here. Most other processes are Delta V, with a bit of legacy DeviceNet stuff, and some CompactLogix for the utilities skids that are sourced from vendors as turn key systems. Also, being "audit ready", everything needs to be clean, organized, and documented. If something isn't being used right now, away it goes. And the people making those calls don't exactly understand what data highway is!

alf61334 · Jan 20, 2022

plvlce, thanks again. Yes, we would be updating to a newer Ethernet PV at the same time as the compact logix upgrade. It looks like the UIC cable will be the one we need. Great that it doesn't require the PC with the serial port. And that firmware sounds like a pain, we'll see what we can do. Maybe the project will just work at that revision, or I can see which features will not carry over.

alf61334 · Jan 20, 2022

The most recent firmware they have available is series F with firmware 3.14. I'm guessing we will still need to update that. I think my plan from here is to get an upload of the project and see what it looks like, and what versions I can revert it to without issue.

Intermittent failures on PanelView 2711-B5A2X. Replacement 2711-B5A2 was ordered.

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