Red Lion or Beijer HMI

Droovers

Member
Join Date
Feb 2016
Location
Netherlands
Posts
4
Hello all,

I am on my first automation project. I have to design a packaging machine which will pack a certain amount of metal parts coming from a vibratory deburring machine in plastic crates. By now I have selected the following components:

PLC: Eaton XC-CPU101-C128K-8DI-6DO
I/O modules: 16DI, 8DO, 1 extra serial port(RS232/RS485)
Load cell: HBM 1-FIT/1SA31/50KG digital load cell, connected via RS232 or RS485 to the plc.

Now I have come to the point to select an HMI. Important factors are costs, reliability, customer service and replacement availability. The HMI has to be able to contain about 50 recipes, containing 5 variables with a total of 22 bytes of data (2 integers, 2 bytes and a 16 character string). The HMI must also be capable of changing some general system parameters en visualize the process. With these factors in mind and after searching on Google and this forum the following products have come to my mind:

- Red Lion G307k200: ~€750,-
- Red Lion G306A000: ~€960,-
- Beijer iX T7a starterkit: €550,- (includes the software)

After my search I believe the Red Lion HMI's offers great reliability, great software and have a very helpful community. I am in doubt however whether the G307k200 will be able to save and edit all these recipes. About the HMI from beijer I couldn't find nearly as much information.

Could you guys tell me which HMI will be best suited to my application and why.

Thanks in advance,

Droovers
 
I've used Red Lion's HMIs extensively and I have some experience with the Beijer T7, so I can give you a basic comparison.

Both units will most certainly do what you want. Beijer has Red Lion beaten on price, as you've found. Not sure how they compare on European distribution. You should be aware that Red Lion's G3 series (i.e. G306) is their original product and is made at their factory in the USA. They are very solid but a bit dated in terms of screen resolution. The Kadet units (G307K) are made in China and private labeled for them, thus the lower cost. Some may say that makes them lower quality but I haven't used enough of the Kadets to comment on reliability.

Concerning recipes, yes it can be done in the Red Lion with Crimson, although they don't have a specific mechanism for it. (Not sure why they haven't added this yet.) You can use array tags and a little programming... but don't let this scare you, there are plenty of examples out there and lots of people on this forum to help. I believe Beijer has a built-in recipe function but I haven't used it.

I have found technical support from both companies to be excellent (and free). We've never had a problem obtaining spare units from either company. Red Lion's Crimson software is top notch and well worth the short time it takes to learn. I haven't used iX Developer very much but I was impressed with it and it seemed fairly intuitive.

One additional plus for Red Lion would be boot-up time. After power is applied, the system is up and running within 5 seconds. Beijer's T7 takes closer to 30 seconds I think (frustrating if you're troubleshooting and have to keep cycling power). Operation of the T7 also seems a little more sluggish to me, whereas the Red Lion has a more responsive feel when pushing buttons, etc.
 
First of all thanks for your quick and extensive reply!

I have found 2 Dutch suppliers that carry the Beijer and the Red Lions, I do not know what their shipping times are though. Ill contact the suppliers to find out.

Both iX as Crimson do seem simple to learn. As of the programming of recipes, I have seen videos explaining how to use the recipe function in iX and how to program it in Crimson. As I do have experience in C-programming (which the Kadet unfortunately doesn't support) I don't expect any problems on that part.

Do you, or someone else, happen to know how much memory and how many tags the G307k can hold, will it be suitable for my needs? I can't seem to find this information.

Even though the T7a looks a lot nicer and the software supports recipes out of the box, I am leaning towards the G307k200 because of the activity of this community.
 
I have used 100's off the T7A and we are happy with them in general.

There have been some speed issues, but Beijer promises that this has been resolved in the last revision of iX developer.

Another big issue for us has been historical trending, this is possible, but is not simple to set up.

Recipes are pretty easy to set up as well, the VNC viewer is a nice option as well.

There is a very big but.. We have had major issues with reliability. Screens that break (soldering, power supply and back light mostly). Also we have had screens that decide to delete/corrupt their own program.

For us enough reason to start moving towards Siemens.
 
As I do have experience in C-programming (which the Kadet unfortunately doesn't support) I don't expect any problems on that part.
I might be misunderstanding your statement, but the Kadet does have C programming ability (well, very similar to C). This is where the Red Lion units really shine in my opinion. You can accomplish most things with just the standard functionality, but the programming lets you control virtually every aspect of the device--the sky's the limit.

Regarding memory capacity, you probably won't find any published numbers on this. The best way is to just experiment. I was able to create a 16,000-element retentive array in Crimson (with G307K2 selected) and then it wouldn't let me create any more. So it's probably safe to assume that 16,000 32-bit integers is the max, which works out to around 64 kB. I believe the volatile storage (RAM) is much higher than that.
 
Thanks for the reply guys, I´ll be using the G307k200 as HMI, 64kB will be more than enough.

I might be misunderstanding your statement, but the Kadet does have C programming ability (well, very similar to C).
In Red Lions HMI brochure (http://files.redlion.net/filedepot_download/137/900) on page 7 the table states the G3 kadet HMIs don't support "C-type user programming", maybe i misunderstood the term "C-type user programming" or the table is wrong. Either way, being able to program in C is a great feature.
 
The one drawback to the Kadets that has been a deal breaker for a couple of applications is the fact that the datalogging is crippled. You can trend for five minutes and its not stored on the SD card. Kadets also don't support web browser access nor emails. I have had no reliability issues with any of Red Lion products.

The one that I saw damaged (by filling it with soapy water) was repaired for under $200 (G310) and returned to us in less than a week. All that died on it was the backlight power supply.
 
Does vendor location matter?
Beijer is based out of Sweden. Red Lion out of the USA.

Beijer is more likely to give the better price, likely because they are trying to compete with Siemens (who are #1 in Europe for HMI sales). Also, odds are that you would get better support from Beijer in Europe (more distributors, faster shipping/replacements, same time zone support, more people in the area skilled with programming Beijer).

I would not recommend the Red Lion Kadet for long-term reliability... that's just a simple fact. It would be better to buy a Weintek HMI if cost is important.
But, the Red Lion G306A is solid and well built. Get the G306A between those two choices.

I think the Beijer software is better in every way that matters, but it is more complicated.
Red Lion software is easy and intuitive to use; they open up a lot of options with their C-like programming.
Beijer: all you need is built in; basics and advanced features
Red Lion: basics are easy, advanced you build with C
 

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