How well does TIA v15 compare to Step7 5.6?

Hi all

We are starting a new project and have to decide on either a 400H or 1500R/H. Hardware wise both PLC's should be fine, but I'd like to hear your first hand experiences with TIA v15 compared to Step7 5.6. I've used various Step7 "Classic" versions for 15 years and I'm very satisfied with how it works, but only briefly worked with TIA, and I think it was v13. I'm told v15 is much better than v13, and the choir of complaints on the forums seem to have died down. I'm still not convinced TIA is as good as Classic though, please enlighten me.

Below are my main concerns to get the conversation started. How does the following compare between v15 and v5.6:

1. Block compare. (If memory serves me, v13 only found the first difference in the block, and ignored everything in the following networks. Has this changed in v15?)
2. Block download. Can v15 download just a single DB? Just a single variable in a DB?
3. Stability/crashes.
4. How fast is it to work with? Time to compile etc.
5. Window management. Unless you have a very large screen, how practical is it to work with, resizing side bars etc?
6. Integration win WinCC.
7. "Trending". I see TIA comes with its own built in tool for this called Trace. How well does it work? Does it catch every PLC scan? Are you forced to use it, rather than for example ServiceLab or IbaPDA, due to optimized DB's and such?

First hand experience with v15 and v5.6 only please, no gripes about older versions or hopes for future versions.

Thanks!

superted said:

no gripes

Click to expand...

So you dont want anyone to answer

superted said:

3. Stability/crashes.
4. How fast is it to work with? Time to compile etc.
5. Window management. Unless you have a very large screen, how practical is it to work with, resizing side bars etc?

Click to expand...

I can only comment on a couple...

3. Much better and does not crash anymore (for me)
4. Still a little slow but that may be my PC more than the software
5. If possible it helps, they are cramming a lot into a screen, looks better on my desktop/wide screen

I like it better but i agree you need a big monitor to be productive. too much panning and scrolling on a laptop screen

Regarding the Trace feature, it's a bit awkward to get used to but, it will capture every scan with good trigger features. The more I use it the more I like it.

1.Compare now shows most differences - still awkward when the number of networks has changed though. I liked being able to export source and use BeyondCompare with V5.6 - only possible with DB's, SCL and STL blocks, LAD blocks need to be exported using openness to compare externally though.

2. It's totally integrated meaning if you change a DB then any other block that references that DB will be recompiled and downloaded. If there is no reference to the DB then yes, it will download your changed DB only.
3. A few annoying glitches still present, my TIA (V15.1) crashes say once every two weeks.
4. Slightly slower than V5.6, but not a problem with my PC hardware.
5. When coding two/three screens is better, but one screen when commissioning is acceptable.
6. I've only used integrated KTP Basic panels - no problems to report.
7. Yes, in built Trace is great, I wrote my own trace for V5.6 which will also work for S7-1500 plcs but not with optimised DBs.


(I started with V14 and quickly jumped to V15 so no experience with V13)

1500R/H is very new, and from what I've seen doesn't support a lot of the typical 1500 features yet. It is also limited on how you can hook up redundant devices, compared to 400H. Because of that, I haven't used it yet. Might be OK for you, though, dunno.

All statements below are referencing combining Portal with regular 1500's, not R/H. You CAN use Portal with 300/400's (not 400H tho), but I have minimal experience there past like v12. Overall, I definitely prefer 1500s in Portal to 300's in Simatic Manager.

1) Honestly, I didn't know that Simatic Manager even had a block compare tool, so I can't compare. The one in Portal is generally pretty good, although a lot of the blocks it thinks are "different" turn out to only have a timestamp difference when you actually do the block compare.

2) Absolutely definitely not. The whole project is compiled, and then any changes are downloaded. However, there is a feature called "download without re-initialization" that allows you to add new tags to a DB without affecting the data already in place.

Honestly, though, it has never been a problem for me. It's mostly just a different way of working with the PLC. Out of all the times I've seen someone complain about requiring full downloads, it was usually caused by someone who didn't understand how the system worked, and there was almost always a workaround. I think there was only one scenario where the answer was "oh dang, yeah, that'd be nice, wouldn't it?"

3) I have crashes every so often. In my experience, you want to make sure that Portal is shut down before you suspend/hibernate your PC. It is way better than it used to be. Definitely usable. If you find you're having trouble, I'd recommend doing a repair installation, it often helps.

4) It is not fast. Every item you drag onto the screen, it has to think about it for a second before you get to do the next item. Compiles take engineering time, but they also prevent a lot of errors that would have turned into bad downloads. Also, it is definitely single threaded, which can be a pain.

5) It definitely takes some getting used to, but you get there. The side bars can auto hide if you want, but I find that I only need to mess with them when i'm changing tasks. If i'm jumping between code and HW and HMI it gets a little clunky. I' i'm deep diving on one of those things, it's fine.

You need to learn to Ctrl+Tab to switch tabs instead of Alt+Tab to switch windows. Also, all the default shortcuts are different, but you can change those now, as of V15.1.

6) I assume you mean WinCC v6/v7. WinCC Pro is a new engineering tool built into Portal that essentially uses the same WinCC V7 runtime. Great integration there. WinCC v7 has no specific support for Portal, but it does support communication to 1500s.

If you mean the panels, then it is super duper integrated and just fine.

7) The Trace feature is great. The trace is executed in the PLC, and then uploaded to Portal as it happens. You pick which tags you want, and which OB you want them sampled out of. You COULD do every scan, or you can slow it down to every few scans. You can set it up to start NOW, or set it up to trigger on some tag later, and then have preconfigure time before the trigger included in the data.

The only real downside is that you can't to an infinite trace, there is a data limit you can't go over.

I think you could use some external tool in unoptimized mode, but I'm not familiar with those tools, or if there would be extra complications in a redundant system.

"The only real downside is that you can't to an infinite trace, there is a data limit you can't go over."



Just an FYI-

Theres a button on the trace called "Automatically repeat recording"

Try that

JRW said:

"The only real downside is that you can't to an infinite trace, there is a data limit you can't go over."



Just an FYI-

Theres a button on the trace called "Automatically repeat recording"

Try that

Click to expand...

sweetness, good to know!

Hi

superted said:

1. Block compare. (If memory serves me, v13 only found the first difference in the block, and ignored everything in the following networks. Has this changed in v15?)
Easy to use and compares all networks (and replaces if you want, I had issues doing that in V5.6 if my memory serves correct)
2. Block download. Can v15 download just a single DB? Just a single variable in a DB?
Yes and it can a single variable without writing over the actual values, you have to activate a memory reserve first though before making a change otherwise it with reinitialise all values
3. Stability/crashes.
No worse than 5.6
4. How fast is it to work with? Time to compile etc.
Slightly slower than classic I'd say
5. Window management. Unless you have a very large screen, how practical is it to work with, resizing side bars etc?
I have a 13" screen, its no different than 5.6 size wise, I have both side bars as small as I need them to make it more workable
6. Integration win WinCC.
ALOT better than v5.6, though sometimes it plays about compiling for the HMI
7. "Trending". I see TIA comes with its own built in tool for this called Trace. How well does it work? Does it catch every PLC scan? Are you forced to use it, rather than for example ServiceLab or IbaPDA, due to optimized DB's and such?
No experience with it

Click to expand...

JRW said:

"The only real downside is that you can't to an infinite trace, there is a data limit you can't go over."



Just an FYI-

Theres a button on the trace called "Automatically repeat recording"

Try that

Click to expand...

Loading Portal now.

superted said:

1. Block compare. (If memory serves me, v13 only found the first difference in the block, and ignored everything in the following networks. Has this changed in v15?)
If you mean online/offline compare it works well, it's possible to modify software in compare window also. Can't remember if I tried two offline project compare, but I think there's this option.

2. Block download. Can v15 download just a single DB? Just a single variable in a DB?
v15.1 added possibility to split software into software units, so it should be possible to download parts of software independently now.

3. Stability/crashes.
Very rare now, but don't forget to save frequently, I think every engineer should do it like that.

4. How fast is it to work with? Time to compile etc.
Too slow, this is biggest issue compared to v5.6. This I consider the weakest point of TIA Portal, commissioning is not as fast as with v5.6. All online changes are much slower, and synchronize option with multiple people working on one PLC doesn't really work properly.

5. Window management. Unless you have a very large screen, how practical is it to work with, resizing side bars etc?
You need large screen. Everything else is pain in the ***.

6. Integration win WinCC.
We usually use InTouch so can't answer this one.

7. "Trending". I see TIA comes with its own built in tool for this called Trace. How well does it work? Does it catch every PLC scan? Are you forced to use it, rather than for example ServiceLab or IbaPDA, due to optimized DB's and such?
It works, it can capture every scan. Don't compare iba with this, iba is a class for itself, if you can use iba. Regarding optimized blocks you can make DBs also to use absolute addresses as in v5.6. No need to use them, but they offer option to be able to download changed DB without having to reinitialize. Everyone knows how critical this is when downloading on operating machine.


First hand experience with v15 and v5.6 only please, no gripes about older versions or hopes for future versions.
Go for v15.1, don't use v15.
Thanks!

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my 2 cents

Thanks guys, good info. Just a bit of follow up here:

So seems people mostly agree that TIA block compare, stability, WinCC integration and Trace works well. Replacing code in the block compare window sure sounds sweet!

But it's still too slow and window management is still a problem, as expected.

2. Block download. I see from the answers, I should have been more clear with my question: For commissioning, is it possible in TIA to change a single actual value, and leave the rest of the DB as it is? If not, what is the best way to manipulate variables during commissioning?

mk42 said:

1500R/H is very new, and from what I've seen doesn't support a lot of the typical 1500 features yet. It is also limited on how you can hook up redundant devices, compared to 400H. Because of that, I haven't used it yet.

Click to expand...

I saw the list of limitations compared with typical 1500, and I wasn't impressed either. We might not be able to use it, because the PLC should communicate with S120 VFD's, which I'm told, require Profinet IRT communication. The 1500 R/H don't support IRT or MRPD, only good old MRP. Funny how the "redundancy PLC" is so severely limited in which redundant communications it supports...

doomsword said:

Don't compare iba with this, iba is a class for itself, if you can use iba.

Click to expand...

I've only evaluated iba, but liked what I saw. If we may compare them though , which features in iba do you miss in the TIA Trace?


Saved the most difficult question for last: Based on my own first hand experience with TIA (an older version) and on the forum posts, I'm left feeling that developing a project will take more time in v15 versus 5.6. I'm considering the time to write the code, and to commission - I'm not considering the time to develop the WinCC part, since I won't be working on it, but I understand the tight integration in TIA saves some time in that area.

Do you agree? Does it take longer in TIA? Dare to put a percentage figure on it?

geniusintraining said:

So you dont want anyone to answer

Click to expand...

Haha, no I want ALL the gripes! Just not about how bad version 10-14 was

“I saw the list of limitations compared with typical 1500, and I wasn't impressed either. We might not be able to use it, because the PLC should communicate with S120 VFD's, which I'm told, require Profinet IRT communication. The 1500 R/H don't support IRT or MRPD, only good old MRP. Funny how the "redundancy PLC" is so severely limited in which redundant communications it supports...”


Wrong. S120 doesn’t require IRT
But what is your application?
Also remember, 1500H doesn’t support TO’s.

superted said:

I've only evaluated iba, but liked what I saw. If we may compare them though , which features in iba do you miss in the TIA Trace?
Trace doesn't feel 'right' . Anyways, with Trace you can have limited samples, while with iba basically you can have unlimited. iba is better for watching more signals at once than Trace, plus you can watch more PLCs at once.
Trace would be good to see some small signal/sequence behavior, for any serious debugging you need better visualization tool, such as iba.


Saved the most difficult question for last: Based on my own first hand experience with TIA (an older version) and on the forum posts, I'm left feeling that developing a project will take more time in v15 versus 5.6. I'm considering the time to write the code, and to commission - I'm not considering the time to develop the WinCC part, since I won't be working on it, but I understand the tight integration in TIA saves some time in that area.

Do you agree? Does it take longer in TIA? Dare to put a percentage figure on it?

Click to expand...

This depends. We found that in TIA you can't switch between ladder and STL, meaning that for repetitive code you can't just copy STL to Notepad, and then search and replace in Notepad variable names.
It is possible to search and replace inside ladder FC, but it feels clumsier.

It is possible to import code and data blocks from external sources though, like in v5.6.
If you have your standard library/projects for v5.6 you can convert it to TIA, but also some syntax is changed so you'll maybe have to rewrite some code. Especially if you were playing with pointers in STL in v5.6.
Also conversion v5.6 to TIA CAN always work, but it never works from first and you have to follow all errors in log to make it successful.
Commissioning is slower but it's harder to mess up like with v5.6, you can care less about offline/online differences or if you have everything in symbol table (this doesn't exist in TIA, you can upload tag names) when uploading.
TIA cares about what are you trying to download, so you can't for example download FC with reference to nonexisting DB, as TIA makes sure everything is good and can be executed properly. Which also means if you have 2-3 guys on same PLC doing commissioning you will get pop-ups you have to synchronize with their changes and then you can download. But often it will say you need to synchronize, but must be done manually. Which means you need to upload online changes by yourself. This wastes some time.

Best practice would be to have one guy - one PLC.

superted said:

Block download. I see from the answers, I should have been more clear with my question: For commissioning, is it possible in TIA to change a single actual value, and leave the rest of the DB as it is? If not, what is the best way to manipulate variables during commissioning?

Click to expand...

Yes. You can change the actual values of tags in DBs while monitoring, via a watch table, or possibly from the DB editor. Or obviously from an HMI. Watch table is often the easiest way. There is a new snapshot feature that allows you to take the current values in a DB and save them to be the offline start value in your program.



If you don't know what you're doing, it can be easy to mess up the difference between offline value, start value, and actual value, but that was true in Simatic Manager as well. Built in technology objects for PIDs and Motion somewhat take this into account, by letting you see all 3 values when you're commissioning.

superted said:

I saw the list of limitations compared with typical 1500, and I wasn't impressed either. We might not be able to use it, because the PLC should communicate with S120 VFD's, which I'm told, require Profinet IRT communication. The 1500 R/H don't support IRT or MRPD, only good old MRP. Funny how the "redundancy PLC" is so severely limited in which redundant communications it supports...

Click to expand...

S120 doesn't TECHNICALLY need IRT, but you lose some of the good features & tight control if you don't use it. Short version is, the product may not absolutely require IRT, but the typical application usually does.


I've only ever heard of MRPD used in conjunction with IRT, so I can't imagine it would support it before IRT support is available. I'd be shocked if it IRT support arrived without MRPD.



The 1500R/H is brand new, I'm sure they're keeping it dumbed down to start to simplify the error reports they get in the field. I think they'll keep adding new features each release. We were told that it'll be a while before it is application complete to the old 400H.

superted said:

Do you agree? Does it take longer in TIA? Dare to put a percentage figure on it?

Click to expand...

Siemens says they have customer references that say development was 33% faster in Portal than Simatic Manager. I dunno how much I think that is typical, but I definitely prefer Portal, once I got used to it.


There's definitely a hump for the 1st project, learning how the 1500s are different from the 300/400s. IF you adapt to the new way of using them, then you'll be fine. If you try to use them like they were still a 300/400, then you'll struggle.

doomsword said:

This depends. We found that in TIA you can't switch between ladder and STL, meaning that for repetitive code you can't just copy STL to Notepad, and then search and replace in Notepad variable names.
It is possible to search and replace inside ladder FC, but it feels clumsier.

Click to expand...

FWIW, it is strongly recommended to avoid STL for the 1500 in any case. It is way slower now, and is pretty much only around for legacy migrations. The recommendation is to use SCL instead, but most things you used to need STL for can be done in LAD now.

doomsword said:

Best practice would be to have one guy - one PLC.

Click to expand...

Definitely true, if possible. If not, the multiuser server is a (paid for) alternative to the (free, but iffy) synchronize feature. It isn't perfect, but it is way less bad.