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Old December 31st, 2019, 11:58 AM   #1
electro89
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Best way to manage multiple local scada clients?

A bit of a background of our setup.. we are running redunant servers with Citect as our scada system and ThinManager for managing remote sessions of Citect to multiple thin-clients (all within our local network). ThinManager will switch sessions to the redundant server if the primary goes down and vice-versa.

For another plant, we are looking to have a similar setup, except with Ignition as the scada instead of Citect, which I've never worked with before.

The current setup works very well for us, but I'm wondering if there's a better way to achieve this setup when using Ignition.

I spoke with an Ignition tech and he said it can be run on a Windows 10 PC, and doesn't require an actual server machine like Citect, but is that recommended? I don't want to waste money on a server if we don't have to, but definitely don't want to cheap-out either. With the PC option, I don't think ThinManager will work, so is there an easier way out there to manage local clients, such as using VNC or TeamViewer?
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Old December 31st, 2019, 01:12 PM   #2
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I run the gateway on a PC all of the time, but it depends on what you have, how many clients, SQL, tag counts, etc. Really need more info. There comes a point where a server does make sense.
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Old December 31st, 2019, 11:55 PM   #3
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TeamViewer can be used across internal IP addresses and....as I hear...without licensing.
Somewhere on the internet I saw how to set it up....

I found some info..
https://community.teamviewer.com/t5/...only/ta-p/4618
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Old January 2nd, 2020, 07:21 AM   #4
electro89
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Phrog30 View Post
I run the gateway on a PC all of the time, but it depends on what you have, how many clients, SQL, tag counts, etc. Really need more info. There comes a point where a server does make sense.
There are 5 clients to start, but I think at a max there would be 10 and estimating under 1500 tag counts.

I'm not too familiar with how Ignition uses SQL, as Citect only uses DBase files, but there will be some databasing required for supervisory reports and general logging/trends. Is a server required when using SQL?

Probably a loaded question, but at what point do you think using a server makes sense?

Quote:
Originally Posted by NetNathan View Post
TeamViewer can be used across internal IP addresses and....as I hear...without licensing.
Somewhere on the internet I saw how to set it up....

I found some info..
https://community.teamviewer.com/t5/...only/ta-p/4618
That's really good to know! Thank you for this
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Old January 2nd, 2020, 09:01 AM   #5
Phrog30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electro89 View Post
There are 5 clients to start, but I think at a max there would be 10 and estimating under 1500 tag counts.

I'm not too familiar with how Ignition uses SQL, as Citect only uses DBase files, but there will be some databasing required for supervisory reports and general logging/trends. Is a server required when using SQL?

Probably a loaded question, but at what point do you think using a server makes sense?



That's really good to know! Thank you for this
I'm not sure I can answer on when you need a server. Here's one thread, look at the end, that you may find interesting, might put your mind at ease.
https://forum.inductiveautomation.co...-server/7777/3

Using SQL doesn't mean using a server. But, it may, it depends on what you are doing.

From what you described, it sounds like running on a PC will work just fine. Ignition does offer redundancy. It does cost though, 50% of the primary cost. It will switch automatically, is a breeze to setup, and you can do data/tag splitting.

Ignition offers a full demo (reset every 2 hours), if you really want to know, make a project and startup 20 clients and see what happens. You can also just use Ignition's demo app if you like.
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Old January 2nd, 2020, 11:34 AM   #6
mk42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by electro89 View Post
A bit of a background of our setup.. we are running redunant servers with Citect as our scada system and ThinManager for managing remote sessions of Citect to multiple thin-clients (all within our local network). ThinManager will switch sessions to the redundant server if the primary goes down and vice-versa.

For another plant, we are looking to have a similar setup, except with Ignition as the scada instead of Citect, which I've never worked with before.

The current setup works very well for us, but I'm wondering if there's a better way to achieve this setup when using Ignition.

I spoke with an Ignition tech and he said it can be run on a Windows 10 PC, and doesn't require an actual server machine like Citect, but is that recommended? I don't want to waste money on a server if we don't have to, but definitely don't want to cheap-out either. With the PC option, I don't think ThinManager will work, so is there an easier way out there to manage local clients, such as using VNC or TeamViewer?

You might need a server class OS, even if you don't need server class HW for the application. I know I've run into limitations before where there were limits imposed by desktop class Windows on how many connections an application can handle simultaneously. I'm not sure where that limit existed, if it was SQL related, or TCP related, or what.


Not sure how Ignition works in general, to know if they get around the issues I've bumped into before (or even what the issues really were), but something to keep in mind.
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Old January 2nd, 2020, 01:18 PM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mk42 View Post
You might need a server class OS, even if you don't need server class HW for the application. I know I've run into limitations before where there were limits imposed by desktop class Windows on how many connections an application can handle simultaneously. I'm not sure where that limit existed, if it was SQL related, or TCP related, or what.
It's an OS thing. Windows 10 limits to 20 connections. Server is unlimited. At least according to Micro$oft.

Secret option number 'B' would be to dip your toes into the refreshing pond of Linux, which also doesn't suffer from the 20 connection limit.

All this assumes that the connections are not also limited by hardware. There's a reason that there are servers and there are desktops.
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Old January 2nd, 2020, 01:25 PM   #8
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Originally Posted by JordanCClark View Post
It's an OS thing. Windows 10 limits to 20 connections. Server is unlimited. At least according to Micro$oft.
Good to know, thanks for sharing...
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Old January 2nd, 2020, 01:32 PM   #9
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Thanks for the info, I think the biggest thing that's holding me back from using a PC instead of a server is the fact that I don't believe a PC would let ThinManager/RDP run sessions of Ignition from it, so I'm looking to see if there are better options out there. ThinManager makes it super easy to deploy new sessions to thin clients, but I remember the Windows side was a pain to set up. Just seeing if there's a more preferred method of deploying scada sessions to the plant floor.
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Old January 2nd, 2020, 01:34 PM   #10
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JordanCClark View Post
It's an OS thing. Windows 10 limits to 20 connections. Server is unlimited. At least according to Micro$oft.

Secret option number 'B' would be to dip your toes into the refreshing pond of Linux, which also doesn't suffer from the 20 connection limit.

All this assumes that the connections are not also limited by hardware. There's a reason that there are servers and there are desktops.
The more I grow to hate Windows the more I wish I knew how to use Linux
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Old January 2nd, 2020, 03:14 PM   #11
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... I wish I knew how to use Linux
That's why there is an Internet...
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Old January 2nd, 2020, 05:30 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JordanCClark View Post
It's an OS thing. Windows 10 limits to 20 connections. Server is unlimited. At least according to Micro$oft.

Secret option number 'B' would be to dip your toes into the refreshing pond of Linux, which also doesn't suffer from the 20 connection limit.

All this assumes that the connections are not also limited by hardware. There's a reason that there are servers and there are desktops.
I've run 50 Ignition clients on Windows 10 pro with no issues, albeit it was a test for 1 week, not a production environment. 'Server' was an i7-5960X, client machine i9-9900k
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Old January 3rd, 2020, 08:58 AM   #13
JordanCClark
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I've run 50 Ignition clients on Windows 10 pro with no issues, albeit it was a test for 1 week, not a production environment. 'Server' was an i7-5960X, client machine i9-9900k
Don't get me wrong, you can totally do it, and with the requirements that OP stated, it should be okay. Just be sure to have enough resources (RAM / HD space if the db is on the same machine).

@electro89: Don't be afraid to jump in on Linux. I'd recommend Ubuntu, It's free, and thus appeals to my sense of cheap, and has a huge community behind it. Get the desktop version, as there is no difference under the hood, and it will give you a fair desktop GUI for pointing and clicking. I've only been using it for five years or so. There's a bit of a paradigm shift in thinking, but not too terrible to learn. As Phrog30 said, that's why there's an internet.
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Old January 3rd, 2020, 09:28 AM   #14
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So I gather a lot can be done without a server, thank you all for your suggestions. This is good to know in case I don't use RDP to deploy these clients or need to get something up and running quick.

With regards to Linux, I'm very tempted, but at the same time I'll be dealing with learning the nuances of Ignition so I don't want to throw too many unknown variables in there at once. Also... no ThinManager support
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Old January 3rd, 2020, 02:51 PM   #15
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If you haven't already started, I highly recommend IU classes for Ignition. The way Ignition handles launching clients is probably a lot different than Citect (which I have never used).

Here is an IU class on the Ignition Client launcher, but it is probably wise to start the classes from the beginning to get an understanding of the different types of architectures you can use.

https://inductiveuniversity.com/vide...t-launcher/8.0
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