HMI and PLC - schnieder

rigicon · Mar 18, 2010

Hi All,
I need 16 HMI's and 4 PLC's with devicenet aboard each PLC. Spec is schneider Twido PLC's & schnieder HMI's.
The norm is to connect 1 HMI as master to the PLC using modbus. The Plc could have 2 ports. Is it possible to have multiple masters talking to the PLC?
The whole system will be connected to a vijeoCitect SCADA server.
Question is if the HMI's have a ethernet port could one connect 12 of them to the lan and access them through citect and then the other 4 HMI's to the other 4 PLC's which in turn could be connected via lan to the citect. There are only 4 cells so this would be OK.?

Stephen Luft · Mar 18, 2010

Why would you require devicenet on the PLC? Could you have it on the display?

Based on your information, Red Lion offers the capabilities you are looking for.

Here is a link to our web site with their information:

http://www.eternity-sales.com/Red_Lion/g3displays.htm

Ethernet is available on the G3 series. In connecting multiple units, you will likely require Ethernet switches for connection. Here is some information:

http://www.eternity-sales.com/Westermo/industrialethernet.htm

The devicenet interface modules are located through this link:

http://www.eternity-sales.com/Red_Lion/redlionaccessories.htm

if you have any additional questions, feel free to ask.

Hope this helps.

God Bless,

rigicon · Mar 18, 2010

Why would you require devicenet on the PLC? Could you have it on the display?

The deviceNet is to talk to Robots.
Thank you Stephen Luft very interesting got a bit of time now to sort out exactly what the project requirements are. I didn't mention bar code readers connected to the HMI's or it could be RF ID (awaiting commercial desicion) but it probably will involve some serial ports which the red lion certainly has.

tragically1969 · Mar 19, 2010

rigicon said:
The deviceNet is to talk to Robots.
Thank you Stephen Luft very interesting got a bit of time now to sort out exactly what the project requirements are. I didn't mention bar code readers connected to the HMI's or it could be RF ID (awaiting commercial desicion) but it probably will involve some serial ports which the red lion certainly has.

Do yourself a favour, ditch the Twido ASAP and replace them with M340's you will get rid of half of your problems straight away.

Connect them all to the LAN, you have access to any PLC from any HMI and Citect can see all the PLC's and HMI's too.

wassim.daoud · Mar 19, 2010

You can use OPC for that. Here's an OPC server for all your Schneider Twido PLCs:

http://www.matrikonopc.com/opc-drivers/1234/index.aspx

OPC uses a client-server architecture, and most modern HMI's comes with a built in OPC Client. So all what you need to do is install the OPC Server that you downloaded, configure your PLCs there and connect all your HMIs to that OPC server to access all your PLCs data.

If you need any help, let me know

Wassim Daoud
Global Solutions Architect
www.MatrikonOPC.com

tragically1969 · Mar 20, 2010

Wassim, with all due respect, you keep advising OPC for these type of solutions without any backgound as to why you think its a better option

Its a bit of a sweeping statement to say 'most' HMI's have an OPC client, do the Magelis range from Schneider have them ? If they dont your post is pointless.

As far as i can see all you are doing is advertising Matrikons OPC server.

rigicon · Mar 20, 2010

After speaking to schnieder their HMI's use MODBUS TCP/IP over ethernet which will talk to Citect Scada.

tragically1969 · Mar 22, 2010

Citect can only be the Master though, there is no Modbus TCP slave driver for Citect, as you are using Vijeo Citect which uses OFS it may be possible (be aware though that OFS = BAD)

rigicon · Mar 22, 2010

http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/member.php?u=29214

tragically1969 Citect can only be the Master though, there is no Modbus TCP slave driver for Citect, as you are using Vijeo Citect which uses OFS it may be possible (be aware though that OFS = BAD)

Thanks not sure what OFS is. Getting citect from schnieder with a 30 min runtime licence to mess around with on friday. It will need to talk to a database really going into IT stuff here. I was thinking access then the IT said it would be better off with microsoft SQL. Will citect be Ok with this?

tragically1969 · Mar 22, 2010

OFS is what Schneider use to interface Citect to the PLC's etc, its sort of their OPC, personally i dont like it.

You can still use Modbus TCP to get the barcode from the HMI (if it can be a slave) to look it up in SQL.

Might be better making the PLC get the barcode from the HMI then just interfacing Citect with the PLC.

But then again i am not a DB guy or a Barcode guy !!

Citect has SQL functions available, i have never used them in anger so cant really comment if they will suit you application, from Citect help:

SQL Functions

SQL functions allow you to define, manipulate, and control data in SQL databases and other relational databases. By using the SQL functions (or the device functions with an SQL device), you can directly access data on database servers, mini-computers, and mainframe computers.

ExecuteDTSPkg
Loads and executes a DTS package which initiates data transfer between OLE DB data sources.
SQLAppend
Appends a text string to the SQL buffer.
SQLBeginTran
Starts a database transaction.
SQLCommit
Commits a transaction to the database.
SQLConnect
Makes a connection to a database system for execution of SQL statements.
SQLDisconnect
Closes a database connection.
SQLEnd
Terminates an SQL query.
SQLErrMsg
Returns an error message from the SQL system.
SQLExec
Executes an SQL query on a database.
SQLFieldInfo
Gets information about the fields or columns selected in an SQL query.
SQLGetField
Gets field or column data from a database record.
SQLInfo
Gets information about a database connection.
SQLNext
Gets the next database record from a SQL query.
SQLNoFields
Gets the number of fields or columns that were returned by the last SQL statement.
SQLNumChange
Gets the number of records that were modified in the last insert, update, or delete SQL statement.
SQLRollBack
Rolls back (or cancels) the last database transaction.
SQLSet
Sets a statement string in the SQL buffer.
SQLTraceOff
Turns off the debug trace.
SQLTraceOn
Turns on the debug trace.

rigicon · Mar 22, 2010

Thank you tragically1969 for the information much appreciated. I too am not a DB or barcode guy so expertise will have to come from the IT dept.
I am a little concerned about the master slave role. As we will be using Vijeo Citect Scada connected to HMI's and PLC's over ethernet using Modbus TCP/IP.
When setting up the HMI to PLC the HMI is the master, the PLC is the slave but oh dear the HMI is the master and now there will be multiple masters on the network especially as the SCADA definitely is the Master.

Do we just make all the HMI's & PLC's slaves?
Can the HMI still talk to the PLC?

tragically1969 · Mar 22, 2010

You can have multiple masters on Modbus TCP no problems, just depends if you can have the HMI as Master AND Slave, i think you can, just checked, you can so no panic....just got to make it work now !

Despite all i have said, in this instance OPC may be worth considering !!

rigicon · Mar 22, 2010

Cheers mate, got a bit worried then. I think the spec is vijeo citect I'll double check that I know the robots are ABB, HMI's ? PLC ? These commercial guys just quote without consulting the engineer and then wonder why we want extra stuff (me ranting again).If not then yea OPC is a definite re-think now which one?
Thanks for your help. I have asked schnieder the same question so I'll let you know what they say and what the project will consist of.

tragically1969 · Mar 22, 2010

rigicon said:
These commercial guys just quote without consulting the engineer and then wonder why we want extra stuff (me ranting again).

I hear you with that one and sympathise...

rigicon said:
I have asked schnieder the same question so I'll let you know what they say and what the project will consist of.

Good luck with that, they will prabably try to sell you Quantum !!

I would personally use M340 rather than Momentum, lots more flexibility and options.

Who are you dealing with at Schneider ? The answer will vary greatly depending on this, if you get a good tech guy then you should be OK, if you get a bad sales guy then you are going to struggle.

As for OPC, you may get away with OFS, if not look at Matrikon, they have stuff for everything including SQL interfaces, never used the stuff myself but it looks good on paper, if a bit expensive.

Good luck...

rigicon · Mar 22, 2010

Schnieder representative As a general role Modbus TCP/IP is not a master slave protocol, it is a client server type. In a client server topology the serer(s) and client(s) can both read and write data over the network media. Basically you don’t have to worry about master slave problems as you would with Modbus serial coms.

Sorry if my answer is a bit general? In order to give you a more detail answer I will need a little more information, perhaps a network diagram including the part numbers of the hardware you intend to use.

The commercial guys only care about the order number, that's it the rest is left to the engineer to make it work - I am going to order what ever I like, let's see the commercial guys squeal he he.

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