Quotes, Quotes and more Quotes

geniusintraining

Lifetime Supporting Member + Moderator
Join Date
Jun 2005
Location
SC
Posts
8,242
Taken from Steve's thread http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=66167

... forget about the ones that want quotes.

How many people feel like quotes are a waste of time, you spend hours and hours making them but a small percentage are real... most are just plant managers looking (window shopping) but not buying anything

Am I the only one?

Now I look at the job or list make something up in my head (way over inflated price) and I still get the same amount of work
 
Unfortunately I have to agree with you. I'm on the other side of the fence though. I get told by corporate management that since I'm maintenance it's my responsibility to get the quotes and concepts and designs for everything at my plant. Then they give me a list of projects they want submittals for for the capital budget of the next year. I spend about 3 months out of the two years working for this company meeting with systems integrators, vendors, and contractors. Not to mention the work that I put into designing my own projects. Then when the capitol figures come back for the next year they have cut nearly all the projects that they asked me for most of mine and spend the bulk of the money on projects with little to no return. Why even ask me to put together a project if they're not going to do it!?!

Don't worry. You're not the only one that gets frustrated with the system. All I expect when I ask for a quote is what you can do it for, an estimate. Because if the project is approved I'm going to have to work within a different budget then I put together and am going to have to re-quote the work anyway. Especially in the second half of the year ask them if it's a Capitol budget submittal. If it is rough quote it and get on with business.

I feel bad when I see a quote I know a guy has put effort into and I've put work into and then the executives sluff it off
 
I think "quotes" is a leftover obsolete concept from the Good Old Days.

Back then (as I remember), prices changed slowly, you had your quote requests typed up by the company secretary or clerk, mailed out letters to prospective bidders, and 3 months later you got some prices mailed back to you, nicely typed and spaced.

Now with the government printing more money each day, prices change hourly, no one has time to wait on information. It is a different world, but unfortunately many engineering managers are still living in the dark ages and actually believe "quotes" are worth getting.
 
I find myself more and more annoyed at quotes. Most of the qoutes I do nowadays are just budget numbers for plant managers and Engineers. there not competitive quotes. I dont have much compition being that I have a one stop shop. I typlicty just use base ten math for this , if it is a micro plc its 10,000 if its a compact logix its 20,000 if it has field wiring to land its ten buks a point ect....If its a coustumer thats hard to deal with its times ten. I find that most of the projects I quote get approved. I long ago quit trying to compete with other systen intergrators I stay to busy to worry about not getting a job Its getting them I worry about!!
just my 2 cents, steve
 
Ok, as an end-user, without the quoting process, how do I find out what it's going to cost for you build my project? Your pricing from the vendor's is significantly different (better) than mine, you have the facilities and tools to build systems where I don't so your overhead is different than mine, and you have the people where I have to re-assign people and hope for the best. Sure, I can make a guess, but my management isn't simply going to accept my word for it, they need someone to validate it. And then how do I know I'm getting a fair price if I don't get multiple quotes? I've seen it many times where a group of quotes comes in only to find one of them is way lower than the rest. Sometimes this is because the vendor is wanting to buy the job but, more often than not, its because of a fundamental misunderstanding. How do I find out about those if we don't go through the quoting process? What's the alternative?

Steve
 
I think the thing that bothers me about quotes is where a company always goes w/ lowest bidder. That's.. not always a good idea.(usually?)
 
And then how do I know I'm getting a fair price
Steve,Talk to others in your industry find out whos naughty and nice. There is more than one way to evaulate a quote in my field It can cost my customer a $100,000 or more to have a single line down for a day. I base my work on quality and dependability. If a customer has done the foot work of creating a bill of material and an explict description of the work to be done I can enter it my estimating software and spit out a bid with little effort. If you want to be sure you are getting a fair price dont just look at price!! Do the foot work to make it an apples to apples bid, consider the price and check references!!! then make your choice. use this to gain trust in your contractor Than its simply a matter of maintaining that trust. once you have it and If the price seems to high just ask why and if your not satisfied with the answer Get other quotes
Best regards ,Steve
 
It was the most difficult thing we had to learn when we first went out on our own. With Automation it can be tempting to do a lot of pre-engineering and put way too much time and effort in quoting.

The last straw for me was when I spent about 2 full weeks on a very large quote, and went through great pains to line up special pricing with my vendors and found out through other channels that the engineer threw out our bid to make sure it went to his "preferred" vendor whom was giving him kickbacks.

The more time we put into a quote, the less likely it seems we are to get the job. Now, we get the major items priced and go with the gut on the rest. The gut on average has been much more accurate.

What really drives me crazy is when someone asks for a large complicated systems quote and pounds on you for a quick number but can't provide the critical details necessary to quote it properly. Then after you submit the quote, they order it like 8 months later and still want you to jump through hoops to get the job done because they are late.
 
Around here a few contractors charge for a quote or estimation.
Had a boss who insisted on 3 bids. I got em - did not like them and wanted cheaper - these were from local well established firms. I told her to go ahead - I had gotten good quotes all fairly close together and I was not going to deal with some fly by night outfit. She did not like hearing that but ended up picking the middle quote. Worked out well.

Dan Bentler
 
Ok, as an end-user, without the quoting process, how do I find out what it's going to cost for you build my project?... Steve

I have become very independant in the last few years. My clients know this. IF they need something that I can provide AND they have enough money to get it THEN we sit down and talk.

It start with what they need ... not what they want, because half the time they don't know what they want but sure enough, by talking about there problems and expectation we can easaly determine what they need. With this I can tell then a ball park figure VERBALY.

I will exchange a formal Quote for a Purchase Order number.

Its like a prenup agreement. You write it down AFTER you have decided what is going to be in it.

Sometime a new client will be shopping around for prices and they don't have a clue about the value nor the price of what they think they need. I talk with them very openly about there ideas and also about the price for them.

If I have to renew a quote some months later... I keep the same quote but it goes up 50%.

I give my loyal client all that I can. My honesty, my sense of pride in the work I do, I go the whole nine yard to give them the best for there money. In exchange for this and to respect myself I don't give a damn $hit about the others.

I don't deal with cities, goverments or BIG corporations. I have sent some of them registered letters to stop sending me plans and drawings to quote on (once your in there system its hard to get out).

I used to have maybee 40 clients... on and off. Now its downd to perhaps 15. I make better money. My quote succes is around 99% and I am much happyer.

So Steve how do find out ...

First, you should know the price BEFORE you ask a quote
Second, a ball park figure is +/- 15%

I sub-contract some work to others and I always make my informal quote of the work they will quote me.

Whatever way they use to quote... from the simplest to the more detailed, we are always within 10%.

So what's 10% between thrusting partners? Yes, once you use an integrator or another professional, you are is partner in the succes of your project.
 
Talk to others in your industry find out whos naughty and nice....check references!!! then make your choice. use this to gain trust in your contractor
That's a nice idea - and it even works sometimes - but it requires that you are well connected, feel confident you can trust "recommendations", and can sell your management on these, alone. The problem, once again, is I still don't have numbers, I still have no comparative base, and I still need some way to show that what I'm requesting is what will arrive. This is business - I can't write too many PO's based purely on trust.

...I can tell then a ball park figure VERBALY....I will exchange a formal Quote for a Purchase Order number.
Pierre - I'm happy for you if you can make that work, but I simply cannot start a project that way. As I said before, I need a comparative basis. If you can't commit, in writing, to a price/scope, there is no way we will ever be able to do business. This has nothing to do with preference, it's my job - I have no choice.

First, you should know the price BEFORE you ask a quote
Once again, back to the same question - how do I determine a price when your industry and mine are so completely different? Your costs, resources, and capabilities are tuned to doing what you do and mine are tuned toward what I do. How do you recommend I go about getting these initial numbers without getting quotes?

I understand your frustration - too often the client doesn't know what he wants or is playing some kind of game and you are a pawn. You live this day-in, day-out.

But you have to look at it from the other side, too. I know that I don't know.

For example, when you are out of town and find you need lawyer or a mechanic? Sure, if you know people with viable experience you could ask them, but what if you don't? Suppose your resources are limited and price matters? Are you just going to stop in at the first shop you find and accept whatever the guy says? How would you feel if the mechanic says "sure, the price is gonna be somewhere around $$$, but before I put anything in writing, you gotta sign here and agree to pay whatever I charge" - are you gonna sign?

Steve
 
Once again, back to the same question - how do I determine a price when your industry and mine are so completely different? Your costs, resources, and capabilities are tuned to doing what you do and mine are tuned toward what I do. How do you recommend I go about getting these initial numbers without getting quotes?
there are lots of estimating software packages out there. NECA labor units,ect...
Your costs
Have nothing to do with your cost, only my profit margin
Lets say i was to give you a written quote, Do you think I would add the overhead cost of estimating, would I set my profits high knowing I am stuck with completing the task with unforseen cost incresses. In other words I will CMA and this will be reflected in my bid.
I put anything in writing, you gotta sign here and agree to pay whatever I charge" - are you gonna sign?
Belive it or not if a job is under 5k I just do the work and get a PO afterwards Thats the kind of trust I have with my clients.
playing some kind of game
Life to short for that I do not ever lower a bid once its been turned in Unless there is a substanial change in the scope of work. I also dont raise one Unless there is a substanial change in the scope of work that goes back to the base 10 thing +or- 10%
I still need some way to show that what I'm requesting is what will arrive
Just be more Specific about what you request.
If you can't commit, in writing, to a price/scope, there is no way we will ever be able to do business
If you know what you want and have estimated your budget you can write the price/scope and state this in RFQ you would be suprised how many bids you will get just weigh the bids by cost and reputation of the firm and make a choice.
 
I have been on both sides of that, and like it or not, if you won't make at least an effort on a quote, you won't be considered for a lot of business.

I know the frustration of preparing them, and then having them out in limbo for months or years. And not every quote is a guaranteed purchase order.

Trust me though, I have the same frustration from the other side dealing with corporate. I have to write up a request for expenditure, which better be close to the mark, and then try to justify it upstairs, and wait while they take months or years to come to a decision. In order to be accurate on that request, I need accurate pricing from my suppliers.
 
Ok for those of you who dont know. most vendors have tools to help in design and product selection contact your vendor. My local siemens has a design guide that helps step you through the process of disigning a panel. I dont know if others do but check this link:
http://www.awc-inc.com/website/sales/TXDefault.aspx
rockwell has tools too.
the cheapest estimating software out there that has any salt is tubro bid:
http://www.turbobid.net/TurboBidPricing.html
It is not designed for automation stuff but allows you to modify it to suit your needs
For anyone not versed in estimating I suggest the link to Mike Holt I have his books and vids they are an excellent reference to estimating anything. If your just getting started in the contracting trade and dont have estimating experince you cant beat his book and vids.
wait while they take months or years to come to a decision
keep in mind a budget number and a quote are not the same!
I help many of my clients with verbal budget numbers I just did several for 20012 budget items.
Hope this helps, Steve
 
I cannot spend my time estimating how much time my vendor is going to charge to engineering, or building panels, or for that matter, anything near the pricing they get.

While I do that for projects we do in house, I typically don't do systems of 30 drives, 10 PLC racks, a couple hundred starters, breakers, and all other ancillary equipment. I give a description of what a line should do, our standard electrical specification, and see what comes back.

Yes, full quotes and budgetary numbers are not the same thing, but they need to be pretty darned close. I've canceled more then one order where the actual quote differed from the budgetary quote by more than 20%. In the same situation, I'd cancel again.
 

Similar Topics

Hi All, I'm keep getting double quotes in between selections rather than the beginning and the end. Here's the script and please help to find...
Replies
7
Views
772
Hello All, Im trying to pass an argument to a stored procedure in wonderware. Someone else is doing the data base, and im required to do a...
Replies
0
Views
1,972
Hello everyone. I have been getting bogged down with some quotations I need to get out. My question is if anyone has a example or "rule of thumb"...
Replies
13
Views
7,495
Hi I want add a double quote in a string without using the function StringChar(34). Is it possible? I have dozens of strings to be sent to an...
Replies
2
Views
7,062
Hi everyone, recently i worked with a cmore panel and have the question that how can clear alarm list whit remote form,right now only can with...
Replies
0
Views
76
Back
Top Bottom