electrical schematic special wire numbering

i am building my first control panel and also doing the design and schematics using autocade 2006 . i am using a line reference based wire numbering system example 915-I:5/15 where as wire number 915 is line reference 915 and 915 is derived from page 9 physical line 15 line ref 915 . i am i need of a method to do all 120 and 24 dc commons and 120 vac line side feeds to the breakers,switches and such. i was considering using line reference for this also such as 403-LR#712 where as wire number 403 is my 24+ going to a device on line ref 712 this would let you know point to point where each individuak wire is landing . this panel will have over 400 field sensors so labeling 400 wires 403 and not knowing which specific device they go to is not an option . any thoughts , comments , suggestions are welcome

Whatever method you use make sure you remain consistent. I usually use the first line reference on which a wire appears or the line reference on which it originates as the wire number for that wire throughout the system. If you are concerned about where the wire lands then perhaps you can use a wirenum-terminal number or wirenum-devicetag wire identificiation system. One thing I can promise you about a wirenum-line reference system: After a couple of years there will be exceptions to the format because the only thing that never changes is that there will be change.

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Alaric said:

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I had no idea Florida was in Afghanistan
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Hell...Welcome to USA..

electricaleit, I dont know if you have seen this thread but you may get some good ideas from it http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=8991


on another note: marksji had a picture of were the HMI folded into the enclosure (57), the post is there but the pic is gone?, that was one of the best ideas I have seen..I have always hated reaching around the door...

This method is similar to what you're proposing, but maybe a little easier:
Page # plus Line # plus 1st, 2nd, or 3rd wire (Example page 09 line #15 wire 01 would be 091501. As it goes thru switches & contacts shown on the same line then it would be 091502, 091503, etc.

For PLC inputs and outputs use the I/O# by itself.

Don't worry about a different numbering scheme for different voltages, that is what the wire color code is for (typically 480= black, 120= red grounded 120VAC neutrals are white, DC is blue or blue w/white stripes).

dogleg43 said:

This method is similar to what you're proposing, but maybe a little easier:
Page # plus Line # plus 1st, 2nd, or 3rd wire (Example page 09 line #15 wire 01 would be 091501. As it goes thru switches & contacts shown on the same line then it would be 091502, 091503, etc.

For PLC inputs and outputs use the I/O# by itself.

Don't worry about a different numbering scheme for different voltages, that is what the wire color code is for (typically 480= black, 120= red grounded 120VAC neutrals are white, DC is blue or blue w/white stripes).

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I have found this type of numbering to be easy to maintain once the system is indtalled. Color codes, and I/O points are great for troubleshooting. They are easy to follow, and any changes can be made without confusion.

Cryptic numbering systems can become a nightmare ten years down the road.

alaric do you have an example of the wirenum-terminal num you describe. also i leave pleanty of spacing for additional rungs so additions ( changes should not pose a real problem

An example would be a high level switch which is designated LSH-1. If the wire number is 403 and it goes from the level switch to a contactor designated R-503 on terminal 11. Then one end of the wire is labeled 403 LSH-1 and the other end is labeled 403 R503[11]. Or if it goes to terminal 9 of TS201 then you would put on 403 TS201[9]. But if you ask me this kind of detail is usually more trouble than it is worth and in the end it doesn't give any information that can't be determined by just looking at the device. Really you can do it however you want. Its more important that you remain consistent. The overwhelming majority of screws will have only one wire under them anyways, so its kind of obvious what device it goes to.

On my drawings I do designate the terminal number to which the wire is connected when there is more than one, as in the case of a contactor, but I don't bother with it for the wires themselves. The wire gets a number that matches its line of origin on the drawing unless its a PLC IO point where its number matches the IO address. Thats as much detail as I put into it. All of the other information can be determined from either the drawing or a common sense look in the box.

The only justifiable reason I can see for adding extra detail will be when you have a group of common terminals, such as 24V distribution for a bunch of IO devices. In this case, if you wanted to, you could tag the wire with the wire number followed by the tag number of the device to which it is attached, eg 403 - LHS-1, but its not worth the bother to tag the other end except as 403 because the termination is obvious at that device.

One thing you want to observe is that wires do not change number just because the cross a terminal, the wire number is preserved through the terminal, but only changes number when it crosses a device such as a switch, sensor, actuator, ect. I always make my terminal numbers match the wire number.

Sometimes control system documentation includes a from/to wiring list and this is where you look to see exactly how a wire is routed, which terminals it goes through, which conduit it enters, which J-boxes it routes through and which j-box it terminates as to be connected to the end actuator. This can be more useful than cramming extra info onto the wire label.

alaric

you answered a lot of my questions . one more though.you say you make your terminal numbers match your wire numbers . i have a circuit where wire # 403 is 24+ and feeds about 20 sensors on page 9 so all wire numbers on this page are 900-950 403 on the left of terminals and 900-950 on the right side . do you make the terminal number in this situation match the 403 24+ feed wire or the 900-950 sensor wires ?

Alaric said:

Whatever method you use make sure you remain consistent...I can promise you about a wirenum-line reference system: After a couple of years there will be exceptions to the format because the only thing that never changes is that there will be change.

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That is so true, and the main reason I don't often use the line number/page reference as wire labels for things that are common like power supply voltages.

For PLC inputs and outputs, I feel that it's much better to use the PLC address as the wire number. The technician in the field will know exactly what he's dealing with when he sees "I:001/14" on a wire and can find it quite quickly if the I/O are in order anywhere in the pile of drawings.

I prefer to create a page with cross references for things that may be difficult to locate in the drawings, and use common sense naming for the wires. I use labels like PS2_24VPOS, 24VCOM, L1A, L2A, and things like that. All wires connect to devices somewhere right? The labels are there so the guy who, for example replaces an AC Drive can get them all back in the correct spots, so label them with the device name and terminal number where possible. Example DR201-16, (AC drive number 201 terminal 16).

Just my opinion. And, like Alaric said, just remain consistent whatever you do.

Why do you like to complicate what is simple?

We have been making schematics for over 15 years, and we use EPLAN, which is probably the best software for schematics available.

Eplan does the wire numbering automatically, all we have to do is to tell the software how to do it. The simplest way, is to give the first wire on the page, the number of the page followed by a sequence number. for example if the page is 90, we will give the first number 9001, 9002..9035 etc. The same applies for relays switches etc. 90K1,90K2,90S1,90SH1 etc. If you use this system for numbering relays etc, don´t forget to leave empty pages in between so if you have to add a component later on, you don't have to renumber all the components again.

The way I do it is probably not the norm but I find that it works for me. I number my wires based on the device it is connected to. For example, a shielded cable going to pressure transmitter PIT-301 would be labeled PIT301. A wire going to solenoid valve SV-201A would be labled SV201A. This way even if you don't have the drawing it makes it easier to locate a wire. I have never liked nor understood the rational for numbering wires based on their location on the schematic

Most of the systems that I have already have wire numbering following the page number, line number, series number that dogleg43 described. I really don't like it because there have been many times that I've added things and can't follow the wire numbering system. It is very frustrating. You can't go in the field and relabel all the wires so what to do. To continue on how I do things in the field, we just come out of our 5 day shutdown (and major installation/reconfiguration of I/O and I thought I would add a picture of my remote DC distribution box. Basically, the 24+ and 24- (or is it 24COM) goes to a terminal strip and then the field devices take off from there. I add the deivce that the power and common wires go to. All my inputs/outputs on the prints are the card i/o number. It has made troubleshooting and other work much easier.

We've always numbered wires (in plc applications) based on a first used first number assigned basis other than I/O which is numbered by slot and bit (slot 1 bit 3 wire 103, slot 5 bit 11 wire 511). Basing a wire number on a page of the wiring diagram would have to assume that the wiring diagram will never change and that the wire is only represented on one page.

Bruce,

Just a observation...You need to check your terminal connections on wires I:18/19? and another they look hot , our you had a opps




That was pay-back for you comment the other day

Actually, the section you are pointing out was done with a Microtorch to heat shrink labels on. I use the Bradly IDxpert with the heat shrink labels (wrap arounds just pick up too much greasy fingerprints on the clear overlay) and the electricians use a butane powered microtorch.






Also shown is a butane powered soldering iron that I use a lot. The down side of the torch is every once in a while you get a burned spot. Usually we reterminate. So it really was an Ooops!