State of engineering in US

I guess there is an important distinction that has to be made whenever we run comparisons regarding licensing and such.

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think medical and legal licensing is done by professional associations (AMA, state bars), while PE is awarded by a state. It might be a worthwhile idea to discuss an engineering rank assigned by some kind of an engineering professional association but I, for once, would truly loathe an idea of being licensed by government.

S7Guy said:

That isn't a very good comparison. ...

The techs that you are comparing yourself to didn't go to any school at all beyond high school? If so, that is unusual. Most places look for at least a two year degree. They days of graduating high school and getting a well paying job are pretty much gone.

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I think it is a good comparison since that is what this subject has gone towards. I am comparing engineers and techs, not engineers and McDonald workers. And yes, the techs here don't have 2 year degrees (except for 3 or 4) yet. Many of the initial ones (that was 9 years ago) were ex-Navy guys (usually just 4 years then out). There are a good amount of techs that were pretty much working in shops or such and had no formal training. Now, we are taking guys out of high school that pass the aptitude test and paying for them to go to a tech school for the 2 year degree. In addition to paying for their school, they work 20 or so hours a week and they get paid a pretty good rate. When complete, they get the full $30+/hr rate. It's the only way we are able to get qualified people. In comparison, we do not pay a person going to college to be an engineer nor do we pay for any school (unless they are already working and then it's only a $2k per year reimbursement).

Going back to the original point, companies don't seem to pay the engineering ranks like they pay the skilled techs. Engineering jobs are getting harder to find for a decent salary and good qualified engineers are getting even harder to find. I do believe there is a shortage of engineers (in the industrial world NOT the computer side) that are willing to make less than the hourly tech working beside them. There is no plan or ciricullum that is changing that. Universities are not supplying any practical teachings and companies aren't willing to hire an engineer without experience. This is not the case when it comes to techs, though.

I guess we should really define 'engineer'.
Do you HAVE to have a BSc in an engineering subject to be classed as an 'engineer'?
To be honest if being allowed to call myself an 'engineer' means I have to get into $50k worth of debt, drop my wages $30k and forget everything I ever learned during my years in the field I think I'll stick to being a lowly technician.

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YES! You must either graduate with a 4 year BS degree in engineering (or be a registered professional engineer by your state board). I've worked hard to get the degree and someone who did not do the required work in school is NOT an engineer.

No one said anything about "forgetting" everything practical to be an engineer or that there are "lowly techs". This kind of attitude is what causes problems like we are discussing.

There is no reason that an engineer can't have good practical field knowledge. I've received mine over 20 years working side by side with very knowledgable techs who taught me a tremendous amount. I've pulled wire, bent conduit, wired panels, troubleshot systems at 2;00 am WITH the techs. I also can perform an arc flash analysis, do a fault study, coordinate breakers in a system, teach high voltage safety, specify the copper when winding a generator, etc.

How did we get on this topic anyway? Why can't we all just play in the same sandbox and get along?

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Just a small pet peeve of mine. We all have them. Sure we can get along, but we also can give our opinions too. When it comes down to some people who tend to bash engineers, I tend to want to defend my profession. I try to not degrade anyone who works in this field without a degree. On the contrary, I have a lot of respect for them. I just ask that I not be judged because I have a engineering degree.

First of all, I'm not enough familiar about US and EU market, but I can say a few words about my country Bosnia and Herzegovina. It's very similar in larger part of the Balkans. I graduated about two years ago, and practically every colleague of mine got job in max few months. I'm not really sure what are the parameters according which demands for engineers and technicians can be measured. Here job is something you can count on when deciding to study engineering (situation in the whole country is bad because huge war devastation, and unemployment is very high), only salary varies a lot.

P.S. I didn't know Hugh Jack is member of this forum. It was after reading his book about PLCs about three years ago when I, as a student, decided to go in that professional direction.

Why Techs make more than Engineers

It's simple...

All my employer gives a whit about is keeping his production running. As a senior Technician, I do that, and I do it well. Production is what pays the shareholders.

I've seen my fair share of Engineers, some good, some bad. The good ones I look up to. I'd rather not mention the bad.

Just my $.02 worth. If you're not happy, maybe it's time for a new career.

usmcgrover said:

It's simple...

All my employer gives a whit about is keeping his production running. As a senior Technician, I do that, and I do it well. Production is what pays the shareholders.

I've seen my fair share of Engineers, some good, some bad. The good ones I look up to. I'd rather not mention the bad.

Just my $.02 worth. If you're not happy, maybe it's time for a new career.

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No, sales is what pays the shareholders.
Production meets sales.
Nice try, though.

Sales

Guess you got me there. Tough to sell what you can't produce though. Egg and chicken?

Have a good one!

usmcgrover said:

Guess you got me there. Tough to sell what you can't produce though. Egg and chicken?

Have a good one!

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Wrong again.
You can outsource your production if you can't do it yourself.
There is no way to outsource sales.

You have a very limited view.

usmcgrover said:

It's simple...

All my employer gives a whit about is keeping his production running. As a senior Technician, I do that, and I do it well.

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Did you design the machines you maintain?

I've seen my fair share of Engineers, some good, some bad. The good ones I look up to. I'd rather not mention the bad.

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You don't see the good engineers that design the cars, LCD TV, iPod, medical equipment, sewer systems, bridges, pick up trucks, motorcycles, airplanes, water systems, power systems, fuel processing, etc. So what do senior technicians do again?

Even the engineers owe what they know to the great ones that have gone before but some have discovered their own 'forever knowledge'.

Just my $.02 worth. If you're not happy, maybe it's time for a new career.

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I don't think the good engineers have anything to complain about.

Thought provoking thread

Reading this thread has given me pause.

Myself I am not an "engineer". I did not have a BS degree. I have an AS degree in Electrical Engineering. I picked the my pictular degree because I knew I could sleep thru the classes and still graduate. I know that sounds shameful to some and boasting to others but the reason for it is simple.

My father is an eltrician/ maintenance techinican. He has something in the neighborhood of 40 years experence. So basically I grew up learning my trade. He gave me my first PLC when I was 11. THe PLC that got me on this crazy ride was a TI5. THe company he was working for at the time were upgrading to the modern TI520's. I mention these PLC's to give a time reference.
While in my career I have not designed a single complete machine. I have made improvements to more than I care to count.

What I call an improvement is anything that reduces the operating cost of the machine.

Ok now to my opinion:
I think alot of the tech/engineer dispute comes from a simple reality. Time with the machine. A tech will always have more time to familarize themselves with a machine that the engineer who designed it. The design engineer builds the beast, gets it into producion and then moves on. The tech has to keep it running. Remember the old saying "hind sight is always 20/20" well the tech has all the hind sight.

Also another thing engineers get reamed for. "Why did he use these cheap componets". To answer that it is called RIO (return on investment). No matter how good you are you can not build a cadillac on a pinto budget. I have walked away from several jobs because what I would do would not pay for itself. To design the "perfect" machine generaly costs more than the machine could ever make.

Now dont get me wrong I am not making excuses for engineers. I have met several that should not even be allowed to hold anything sharper than a crayon. I have also worked with (and still continue to deal with) techs who should have there tool boxes welded shut so they can not do anymore harm.

Thankfully in my career I have worked with some of the best engineers and the best technicans. I have learned alot from these guys and will continue to.

My next Opinion: What makes these guys so good.

I believe training plays the biggest part. This goes for both engineers and techinicans. I do not mean just stuffing their collective heads with knowledge. What I am refering to is what Peter shows. I am using Peter as a reference because he is in this thread several times. Peter shows the fundimental ablity all engineers and techinicans must have. He does take it to the geeky extreme and sometimes gives me a headache when I try and understand him. What Peter has done and continues to do is use his mind to logically problem solve. Logic is the key. TO find the answer you must know the question. You have to understand what it is your working on.

Basically in my opinion, how you think is more important than what you know. If you can spell "Google" you can find the imformation you need. First you need to think of what you need. Then find the correct imformation. Now you put everything together and you have an answer. If your really good or really lucky you have the best answer. Most of the time you have a working answer and it is time to refine. The refining is the job I do most.

My opinion on school: It is what you make of it. I slept thru mine so I really can not say what I might have gotten from it. Better gramer and spelling skills would have definatly been a plus. I do believe it is important for no other reason than to say your commited to the feild you are studying.

My opinion on pay: You get what you demand and the market supports. Unless you work for a charity, the person you are working for is in it for the money. The less they have to pay you the more they get to keep. You want more money, show your employer what you deliever and what it is really worth. If you can show paying to keep you is worth mored than losing you to someone else then you get what you want. Saying I am an engineer or saying I am a techinican is not enough. ROI applies to EVERYTHING. Including the labor.


Well anyway this is my opinion so take it for what it is worth. I will say I apply the ideas I have listed and I manage to live pretty good ( my ex lives pretty good also) so I would call this a good working model.

Peter will probably do the math and show a better one but hey I never said I was the sharpest pencil in the box. I am just not the crayon.

Nice post, Clay

Well put. I've been thinking about this all morning, and have the same ideas. My background, education, and occupation is similar to yours.

I apologize if my original post offended anyone. I'm known for being quite blunt sometimes... must be the Jarhead in me.

My reference to "good" and "bad" Engineers refers to attitude, not skill level. I've worked with ones that treated me and my profession with respect, and ones who didn't. I'm in no position to judge an Engineer's techincal skills, as I'm not an Engineer.

Like Clay said, we're worth whatever the market will bear. If you feel like you're being taken advantage of, maybe it's time to make some noise. I guess the point I was trying to make is that going on and on about it here isn't going to change a thing.

I also agree with the post a while back about licensure. Testing for a license helps weed out the guys who don't know their stuff. Of course, if your employer doesn't care if you have a license or degree then I guess it's not worth much. For us Electricians, our license is based in state law, so the employer has to care (for electrical construction, anyway).

Everyone take care and have a good Holiday weekend.