690 rewind

Smitty

Member
Join Date
May 2011
Location
Texas
Posts
2
Hopefully someone can help me with this drive. We have a 690+ that we are using on a centerwound rewinder that rewinds paper up to 50" diameter rolls starting on 3" up to 6" cores at up to 1830 fpm and up to 93lbs of web tension. We are using load cels for our tension input and encoders for line speed and rewinder motor speed. The winder is somewhat erratic with the 6" cores and we cannot get 3" to run at all. The guy that set it up is not a drive guy and I am not either but my boss wants me to take a stab at it. The 690 has a macro for speed programmed winder and it is being used but I am not confident that it will do me any good with the current parameters. I am thinking of starting over as I am under the impression that these drives are well engineered and would require little tuning as long as the basic parameters are correct. Any advice would be greatly appreciated. I am sorry if I left out any important information.
 
Hello Smitty, and welcome to the forum!

There are some winding experts who frequent this forum and so they can give you better information than I can. My winder experience is limited to 400fpm and rubber or plastic products.

Please supply as much detail as possible:

1) Motor type HP, RPM
2) Gear reduction
3) Any dancers present in the system
4) Accel and decel rates of the line speed
5) Splice on the fly winder?
6) Encoder resolution
7) Who makes the 690+? Whole part numbers with options including external braking are great.
8) What happened? New machine? Change to product line? Retrofit?

I know it's a lot, but the more precise you apply the specs, the better will be your results.

My winders were mostly velocity driven with position dancers and light tension, sometimes tapered, so my speed regulation in those apps was tolerant of more error.

On the high speed, high accel stuff, (we used analog servos on some) we often switched between torque and velocity modes. Velocity mode was used during ratio detection with a large trim "gain" from any dancer that was present, and a somewhat smaller trim from the tension feedback. Once that loop was stable, the line speed was allowed to go to "fast train" mode and the winder was switched to torque-mode with either a PID or straight (tapered) P control using the loadcell (tension) signal as the PV and the torque reference to the drive was the CV.

Some of our drives could not be switched on the fly, so they would stay in velocity mode, but we would select an analog current reference during ratio detection.

Ratio detection was done by figuring out the correct "counts per scan" from both the winder encoder and the line. On products with a variable thickness, ratio detection was enabled full time. Also we often needed to run out partial rolls and even finish filling them so we would occasionally get a wild core size to make things interesting.

I did one slitter application replacing MaxPak drives with a newer version and duplicated the setup which sounds like your macro. It did all the math for me, I just had to program the digital inputs to select the right core diameter, wire the encoders to it, and set the tension setpoint to an analog input from the PLC. There was a bit more tuning involved but I have slept since then.

In the PLC I calculated the length of the roll (using a formula I learned here), and used that to trigger the required slowdown and avoid overfilling the winder. Our operators had to run a forklift and do a bunch of paper work, and it made quite a mess if the takeup shaft was overloaded.

We had to have a certain amount of logic to handle ratio detection throughout the cycle to help deal with variations in line thickness.

If your cores are not variable in diameter (repeatable 3" or 6" that can be programmed?), and your product thickness is very consistent, you might get away with strictly velocity control, but you may need to adjust the gains during stops and starts (if any) or in proportion to the roll diameter. It is my experience that a winder macro in a drive usually just mean electronic gearing with some smarts to identify the right ratio and required taper. On those, as long as I was exacting in measuring the numbers used by the drive, they just worked. So, get your digital calipers out, read all the fine print, and put it all on paper to compare with what's running before making adjustments.

Hope I am not way off track here...
Paul
 
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The 690+ are from parker ssd. I used them on a web line for everything but a winder. We ran in speed regulation mode with torque limiting on DC drives. I didn't get to set any of that up I just got to play with the tuning.
Like Paul said the more info the better the help. Does the drive you have, have the add on option board I can't remember what that board is called. It has the secondary encoder input and more I/O on it. I want to call it an expansion card but I know that is not it. On the smaller HP this is a factory option and not a field adder.

Just a side question are you running this in common bus mode with others? I never got to do a system with common bus, but man I wanted to. Just because. No real reason other than because I wanted to.
 
Load cells? Speed programmed winder mode? Ouchies.
I'll be 100% honest here, while it is absolutely possible to do a load cell controlled web winder in speed mode, 99.9% of the time it is 37.8 times harder then doing it in torque mode. Why? Tension = torque. Sure, there are some more numbers to fill in, but Tension still equals torque. Speed does not, and the speed loop will bounce all over to make a 0.01% correction, causing wild fluctuations in tension, even if you don't see them. Be that as it may, the best approach for a speed programmed winder (and I hate that terminology btw) is:

-- DISABLE ANY LOAD CELL TRIM FOR THE FOLLOWING:

1) Absolutely know your core diameter, set this to be the MINIMIM value for your diameter calculator. Never let the diameter calculator go below this value, ever.

2) Have a stable, actual line speed value, and a stable, actual winder speed (spindle RPM) value. Sometimes, for line speed, it actually makes more sense to use the reference then the actual speed.

3) For your diameter calculator, don't be afraid to filter it. If you have the option on the diameter calculator, only allow it to INCREASE. Oh, get familiar with the units. I don't remember how SSD/Parker does things, I haven't used canned drive-based winder packages in a long time.

4) Make sure your core speed match is dead on. Use a hand tach to measure the core surface speed as you accel and decel the line. Make sure the speed tracks.

5) Set your MIN CORE VALUE to whatever your max diameter is, load a roll of that diameter if you have it. Again, run the line up and down, and make sure the surface speed tracks.

6) Return the MIN DIAMETER setting to your smallest core diameter. If you run on multiple cores, you should probably use a digital input to set an alternate min diameter here. Digital inputs should also reset the calculator when the roll has been changed.

7) Now you can re-connect the load cell control, and start playing with it's PID. First, obviously, is make sure it responds in the correct direction... Set the maximum trim to something like 5%(*) from the tension control PID, run the line (empty), give it a zero speed reference, and mid range tension reference. The roll should turn at 5% drive speed in the winding direction. Manually load the load cell roll down, the winder should slow down, stop, or possibly reverse. That is good.

8) Have the winder drive set to sum in the output of the tension regulator to the master line speed reference, and then feed the sum into whatever is dividing your line speed by diameter before feeding that reference to the drive.

9) Play with the PID tuning as you slowly bring up the line speed.

(*) - Allow the PID to have a full +/- 100% trim output, but feed that into a multiplier so you can limit it before summing to the line speed reference. The smaller the trim value, the better generally with SPW's. I typically shoot for no more then 2 to 5%.

The above is very basic, but might help you get started.
 
Center-driven winders are among the toughest applications for drives-motors. I would start by first requiring custom winder software in the drive. Most manufacturers have such available as an option and, in my opinion, it is folly to attempt these applications without the custom software.

My advice to you is to find a system integrator in your area that does winders. You will be delivered from a thousand horrors and will have a system that works good.

Again, these are really tough applications. I always defer to a winder integrator and I've seen a lot of crazy drive applications in my 22 years.
 
Everyone is assuming that you are using the winder blocks in the drive, is that correct or are you doing everything in a PLC?

Load cells? Speed programmed winder mode? Ouchies.
I'll be 100% honest here, while it is absolutely possible to do a load cell controlled web winder in speed mode, 99.9% of the time it is 37.8 times harder then doing it in torque mode. Why? Tension = torque.
rdast Always gives good advice and I second it, If you've got load cells then you need to be using the CPW macro (open loop torque mode) and then add your PID trim.


2) Have a stable, actual line speed value, and a stable, actual winder speed (spindle RPM) value. Sometimes, for line speed, it actually makes more sense to use the reference then the actual speed.

If you use actual linespeed as the reference then the rewind can overhaul the line and give you positive feedback = run-away.

3) For your diameter calculator, don't be afraid to filter it. If you have the option on the diameter calculator, only allow it to INCREASE. Oh, get familiar with the units. I don't remember how SSD/Parker does things, I haven't used canned drive-based winder packages in a long time.

On a 3" core the rate of change of diameter will be quite rapid but towards full diameter the rate of change will be much lower. You might want to alter the diameter filter as a function of diameter and also maybe linespeed.

4) Make sure your core speed match is dead on. Use a hand tach to measure the core surface speed as you accel and decel the line. Make sure the speed tracks.

You can calculate the required maximum speed calibration as:
RPM = Linespeed(MPM)/PI *D(M)* Gear Ratio. Where D = required synchronous diameter. E.G. 558MPM / (3.14159 * 0.092) = 1929.87 * Gear Ratio

6) If you run on multiple cores, you should probably use a digital input to set an alternate min diameter here. Digital inputs should also reset the calculator when the roll has been changed.

The Min Diameter value is a calibration constant, you would be better off altering the preset diameter to correspond to differing core sizes.

If your going to use the CPW macro, sum your PID output with the open loop tension demand (because you are measuring a tension error) i.e. before the torque calculation so that the system response remains the same regardless of diameter.

Hope this is helpful,

Nick
 
Sorry, Just looked at the 690+ manual and there is no CPW macro, it only exists in the 590+.

You would need to modify the SPW macro to suit with an overspeed (summed with linespeed) and a Torque limit generated by the tension/taper blocks and then multiply by diameter (Tension * Radius = Torque), then scale to maximum torque available.

Nick
 
Gentlemen-

If I get a misfire in my car, especially at high speed, I start with the spark plugs, air filter and sensors. I don't pull the motor and replace it.

I have use 690+ drives on applications from 1lb of tension to 200lb of tension at speeds from 300FPM to 3000FPM. Most have been done using the SPW block in the drive system. While my personality type tends to ause me to rail against canned blocks I must say that the SPW block in the 690+ is reasonably solid.

I would concur with DickDV. Try to find a local SSD integrator and get some help. At the very least he will be able to get you familiar with this block and how the adustments affect the operation.

On thing that comes to mind is make sure the drive accel/decel times are set to the minimum value the drive will allow. You don't want the drive to slew the corrections the PI controller is making. If you have a loadcell system the derivative gain in your tension loop should be set to zero. The tension value changes too fast for a given velocity change for the derivative gain in the SPW to be of any use. Also, the drive velocity loop gains should be set to an "optimum" level before the tension loop is tuned.

In case you don't already have it, download this manual:
http://www.ssddrives.com/usa/doc/HA355297.pdf

It is a handbook for the speed programmed winder and may come in handy.

As a side note, the CPW does still exist in the 690+ drives, at least if you have the LINK techbox installed. I'm not so sure if it is a free-standing drive.

Keith
 
Gentlemen-

If I get a misfire in my car, especially at high speed, I start with the spark plugs, air filter and sensors. I don't pull the motor and replace it.

But if your new car never made it out of the showroom, you might wonder if was set up correctly.

Gentlemen-
I have use 690+ drives on applications from 1lb of tension to 200lb of tension at speeds from 300FPM to 3000FPM. Most have been done using the SPW block in the drive system. While my personality type tends to ause me to rail against canned blocks I must say that the SPW block in the 690+ is reasonably solid.

Keith

Over the last 20 odd years, I've designed and commissioned a considderable number of winders (up to 8000FPM) and almost all of them have been controlled by a PLC but if I had to do it in a drive, I would use a 690+.

If you have a dancer then the SPW is great but running winders in speed control with load cell feedback presents problems. If you have a 1% error in your torque calculation then you have a 1% error in tension but if you have a 1% error in speed then you have an infinate tension error. SPW can be made to work with loadcells but it is more difficult.

Nick
 

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