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Old August 8th, 2017, 03:12 PM   #16
ganutenator
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and don't be condescending to people. that means talking down to people.
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Old August 8th, 2017, 03:16 PM   #17
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try to name the tag the same in the hmi as in the plc.
personal fail.
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Old August 8th, 2017, 03:44 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by ganutenator View Post
and don't be condescending to people. that means talking down to people.
This may seem like an after thought, but I've witnessed the damage this can cause in a plant. Engineers a lot of the time just assume they are more intelligent than people like operators or maintenance. The truth is simply that engineers are generally more educated about certain aspects of how the machines work, and that doesn't necessarily mean more intelligent.

I've learned that operators are invaluable in my job, because they are the people that know the process the best. ALWAYS value the input operators and maintenance people can give. Sometimes it won't be helpful, and sometimes operators can be downright annoying. It's great advice, however, to stay on their good side and engage them whenever you can for input.
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Old August 8th, 2017, 04:01 PM   #19
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This may seem like an after thought, but I've witnessed the damage this can cause in a plant. Engineers a lot of the time just assume they are more intelligent than people like operators or maintenance. The truth is simply that engineers are generally more educated about certain aspects of how the machines work, and that doesn't necessarily mean more intelligent.

I've learned that operators are invaluable in my job, because they are the people that know the process the best. ALWAYS value the input operators and maintenance people can give. Sometimes it won't be helpful, and sometimes operators can be downright annoying. It's great advice, however, to stay on their good side and engage them whenever you can for input.
I agree! I was kinda both making a joke and being serious. You def. have to take the input w/ a grain of salt. especially the what they think is the problem part. but 99% of the time, if they say something is wrong, something is wrong. you just have to find out what is wrong.

additionally, the better you treat people... (duh button) the more likely they will help you. and don't think they can't help you.
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Old August 8th, 2017, 04:06 PM   #20
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and get used to everyone thinking the problem in the black magic mystery box (aka, the thing they don't understand).

plc a function (f of x). bad input = bad output. good input bad output, it probably the program.

good output no worky = electrical.

find the domain where f of x equals.... it the plc. but i didn't finish. no, i'm convinced it the program.

Last edited by ganutenator; August 8th, 2017 at 04:10 PM.
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Old August 8th, 2017, 04:23 PM   #21
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When working on programming, is it possible that a logic in a lower rung will cause a previously correct (before the later logic was added) rung before it to fault?.
This leads me to believe you're unclear on the PLC scan cycle. A cursory look at the PLC 1 curriculum doesn't mention this subject. Was the scan cycle covered in that unit?

Also PLC boot camp may be useful.
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Old August 8th, 2017, 04:26 PM   #22
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also, seen some plc's and hmi's able to change a tag between rungs. ab and wonderware come to mind.
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Old August 8th, 2017, 05:12 PM   #23
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Don't get discouraged. Programming is an art that is honed over time. Right now, you've got this toolbox full of tools that you don't know how to use. So doing even the simplest things is like pulling teeth! It can be very frustrating, I know. But if you keep at it, you'll eventually get over the hump to the point where it actually becomes "fun" because you'll *know* the toolbox, and then it'll be all about how creative you can be with building functionality into your programs - and that's when software development starts to become magical.

I would just apply for a job with a Controls company as a Junior Engineer. I know Chem-E's who have done just that. No programming experience in college to speak of. Then you'll get exposed to actual applications that you can analyze and learn from. Plus, you'll have experienced people around you who can answer your questions as they occur to you.
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Old August 8th, 2017, 05:34 PM   #24
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Not that I really have a foot to stand on in regards to experience (I am quite young for this field), but I think that truly one of the most important things to understand in regards to programming is the overall process, the end goal. I always make a list of inputs and outputs before I do ANY programming, as this allows me to understand exactly what I'm working with. When one has a grasp of the tools they are working with, they can start working on the actual project. Someone mentioned working backwards from the output and that is a really great way to approach programming most of the time. I feel like with an eye for process any engineer should be fine transitioning, it's just pretty daunting at the start, like myself transitioning into chemical engineering.

While this isn't a part of your question, I will mention that many of the process engineers that I work with have their degrees in Chemical Engineering. I work in Food and Beverage in the Central Valley of California, which is a huge market for food and beverage manufacturing (we have the worlds largest single site winery and the worlds largest single site cheese plant, one of which I currently work for). If you were willing to come out to the desert between the mountains, that is.
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Old August 8th, 2017, 06:36 PM   #25
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better to just buy an engineering company and hire engineers. you get rich that way.
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Old August 8th, 2017, 07:16 PM   #26
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better to just buy an engineering company and hire engineers. you get rich that way.
Or go bankrupt.
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Old August 8th, 2017, 07:44 PM   #27
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better to just buy an engineering company and hire engineers. you get rich that way.
Best way to make a million dollars in the engineering business is to start with two million and quit when you've got one million left.
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Old August 8th, 2017, 08:50 PM   #28
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This leads me to believe you're unclear on the PLC scan cycle. A cursory look at the PLC 1 curriculum doesn't mention this subject. Was the scan cycle covered in that unit?

Also PLC boot camp may be useful.

you are correct. I am NOT 100% understanding scan cycle. the PLC 1 mentions it briefly by simply saying something along the lines of "it'll read this instruction on the left, and if logic passes, do the output on the right before going to the next rung"

however, when the scan gets more complicated by adding rungs with branches using the same output bit on a previous rung, or if there are branches on the logic side of the program (left side) I get confused on why the right side doesnt/does get energized most times.
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Old August 9th, 2017, 02:28 AM   #29
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Over 25 years ago, I wanted to learn this complicated PLC thingy.
More and more machines were coming to my factory with them in.

My boss would not pay for software or schooling preferring to get the 'experts' in when they went wrong or needed changes.
I paid for a quick course myself and it was a complete waste of money and time.
I was no wiser when the course had finished
(looking back and knowing what I know now - the tutor was useless.)
He concentrated on 'scan times' and scan which meant nothing to me and nothing practical.
So I bought a PLC and the software and leads and set them up in my shed.
I spent 2 years after work in that shed teaching my self with books and trial and error.

There is no quick route to understanding PLC's and being competent - but getting an actual plc and software etc is far far better for understanding what is happening.
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Old August 9th, 2017, 04:28 AM   #30
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dude, i was so there at one point. i feel ya. i wish i was a better teacher. i so want to help you right now but don't know how.
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