Pv1400e 2711e-k14c6 Replacement ?

A question on replacing PV 1400e's

I have a customer who has quite a few of these and whilst they are excellent the screens dont tend to last as long as the tfts

With this in mind what would you guys recommend as a replacement for these

Yes i know the PV+ is its direct replacement but is it as good at withstanding the hard knocks as the 1400e from the staff on the shop floor ?

I have never used a PV+ so are they any good, still in their infacy ? Firmware / software issues ?

Are the PV+'s interchangeable with different revisons as easy as the PV1400e ?

All the PV1400e's are on DH+ and range from series Aor B through to F i think

Other than the PV+ what other vendors would you suggest for

1. Robust Nema Type Enclosure

2. Long Life Screen

3. Easy to get Repaired

4. Migration from PB1400e to New Screen Easy / Diff / Hard

5. 14" or 15" screen

6. DH+ connection

7. Exisitng Units are Keypad only

I've been using PV+ since Rev 1.0. I think my Serial No was one of the first 100 released.

Rev 1 and 2 were ok as PV Standard replacements. Rev 3.0 introduced the Factory Talk global tag addressing which was released prematurely. Rev 3.1 was a bit of a curate's egg, good in parts, but needed a bunch of patches and bug fixes.

But at Rev 3.2 I am 100% happy with it and I thoroughly enjoy using it. RSView Studio is no longer in it's infancy. None of the 8 different one's I have used at v3.2, have given a moments trouble in service.

There is a 15 inch Version, and DH+ of course is available. I've never done but my reading of the info is that converting from PV1400e to PV+ is also built-in. Of course I would be very tempted to re-do the graphics in order to take advantage of what can be done with the newer system.

As for ruggedness...well the PV+ seems built to the same or better standard of the PV Standard, so there is nothing much lost on that front.

How is it programmed exactly ?


RSView Runtime & Machine Edition ? Tag Numbers ?

Im new to RSView !

I think tag limit is 5K

You need RSView Studio for Machine Edition or Supervisori Editon (more expensive one and also supports RsWiew SE programming)

If you do not have much time to learn it, order training. Personally I think it is quite easy. Just in the beginnning try to make communication work (little tricky)

The bit that catches most people is the fact that with RSView Studio you have to specify TWO comms paths.

1. The path from the Target PanelView to the CPU it will be talking to. This is called the <Target> path.

2. At the same time you also need to define the path from the PC terminal Studio is running on to the CPU. This is called the <Local> path and allows you to do runtime testing of the application directly within Studio.

In the ControlLogix world the two paths can be totally different and both can exist at the same time.

Just to confuse slightly more, when you do a download the <File Transfer Utility> you will browse a third path to dump the application file from your PC into the PV+. This one is easy because RSLinx Enterprise more or less does it for you, but setting up the first two is a little less obvious.

This is because you are using a new piece of comms software called RSLinx Enterprise which incorporates part of the global tag scheme. The old RSLinx gets called "RSLinx for RSView". Both can run on a PC at the same time. Currently this dual Linx setup may be required because RSLinx Enterprise does not have all drivers to all hardware, and not all applications, eg RSView32 can use RSLinx Enterprise...so you have potential for a bit of a cross-over muddle, which is why most people need a spot of training to get it all straight.

Anyhow the RSLinx Enterprise GUI is somewhat less developed than the old RSLinx, AND because you are creating a Target path which your PC cannot necessarily "see", you have to do a bit of work to define for RSLinx what it is. At Rev3.0 it was not ok, but at Rev 3.2 it is much better.

The good news is <Direct Tags>. Almost all other HMI's in the past require the user to create a Tag Database of some kind that is essentially a kind of "dual port memory" between the PLC and the HMI application. In Studio these still remain and are called <HMI Tags>. Most of the time however you will want to use the OPC Tag Browsing feature to simple create direct connections from the object you are animating and the PLC address it is reading/writing. ie the object gets it's data directly from the PLC for it's animation. This cuts out a WHOLE bunch of error prone work and is especially usefull at the later stages of the project when you want to tack in an extra thing or two.

Licencing is done by pages, not tags. ie the number of graphic screens determines the package size. This is great as you can pass parameters (one level deep) to pop-up pages for device details, and the single common page for those devices can account for a lot of display information. Also the more useful data you put on a page and the less frivolous graphics, the more you can take advantage of this aspect of RSView Studio to get really big projects into even the smallest version.

That said, because PVPlus is essentially a WinCE device, it runs with really nice graphics, far better than the old PV Standards. A closely related product, VersaView, is pretty much the same thing, but the application OS is open, allowing other applications to run on the terminal at the same time.

I just converted a PanelView1400E to a PanelViewPlus1000 this week. There were some issues with the conversion; objects didn't size correctly which probably has something to do with going to a smaller screen. Everything was compressed to a point you couldn't read it so I had to basically edit every object.

Another issue was the tags. The system uses Remote I/O and not all the tags could convert. So it generated an error report and told which tags to look at. Once I got into the tag conversions it wasn't a big deal but still took some time.

This was the first time I converted a 1400E program to a PV+ application so there's a good chance I missed some steps. Overall it wasn't bad and I've just been awarded another job to do it again.

My biggest issue was getting the firmware on the PV+ upgraded. It was a version 3.0 and I needed to go to 3.2 which requires a kit you need to purchase. After some exchanges with my distributor they bent over backwards to get me the upgrade kit at no cost and as quick as they could.

I agree with the previous post where its nice to redraw some objects because of the capability of the PV+; I added some nice little animations for some motors and blowers.

504bloke said:

Yes i know the PV+ is its direct replacement but is it as good at withstanding the hard knocks as the 1400e from the staff on the shop floor ?

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You may be able to get one to fit the same cutout, but that's where the similarity ends.

504bloke said:

I have never used a PV+ so are they any good, still in their infacy ? Firmware / software issues ?

Are the PV+'s interchangeable with different revisons as easy as the PV1400e ?

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Plenty of issues.
Just like the ControlLogix system, firmware and programming software have to be at the same revision level. Unlike RSLogix 5000, however, you can only have one version of RSView Studio installed. From version 3.0 to 3.1 they switched from WinCE v3 to WinCE v4 which meant that anyone with existing PV+'s (or RAC6182's) couldn't upgrade their firmware unless they purchased the new version of WinCE (on top of the annual maintenance fee for Studio).

In the infinite wisdom of RSI, your PV+ projects can only be stored in one place that is many levels deep on the C: drive.
If you manage to find that place, don't think about copying the folder for archive purposes or moving to a different PC - it won't be recognised anywhere else. You must use Studio's archiving s/w. And don't ever lose the archive, because you can't upload the application from the PV+.

IMHO the PV+ is a poor compromise between the standard PanelView and RSView32. You can get a 15" panel-mount PC with TFT screen plus RSView32 for less than just a 15" PV+ - never mind the Studio s/w. Then you will have a more open, more powerful system to work with and none of the RSLinx Enterprise hassles.

From version 3.0 to 3.1 they switched from WinCE v3 to WinCE v4 which meant that anyone with existing PV+'s (or RAC6182's) couldn't upgrade their firmware unless they purchased the new version of WinCE (on top of the annual maintenance fee for Studio

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True, but this problem was forced on Rockwell by Microsoft and is in the past now. Besides in many cases the local distributors simply did their best to cover the cost for their good customers. Sure is easy to criticise past issues Gerry, but Ver 3.2 has been out for several months now and if you buy anything new it SHOULD be Ver 3.2.(And if not the seller should fix it pronto.)

In the infinite wisdom of RSI, your PV+ projects can only be stored in one place that is many levels deep on the C: drive.
If you manage to find that place, don't think about copying the folder for archive purposes or moving to a different PC - it won't be recognised anywhere else. You must use Studio's archiving s/w. And don't ever lose the archive, because you can't upload the application from the PV+.

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Also true, but so what...that is what the Application Manager is for...to manage backups, restores, etc. Frankly I don't care where the application is on my HD, so long as I can back it up and transfer it to another PC, or perform any of the other tasks the Application Manager does for me. As for not being able to upload from the PVPlus terminal, can you then explain to me what the tab on the <File Transfer Utility> called "Upload" is used for?

IMHO the PV+ is a poor compromise between the standard PanelView and RSView32. You can get a 15" panel-mount PC with TFT screen plus RSView32 for less than just a 15" PV+ - never mind the Studio s/w. Then you will have a more open, more powerful system to work with and none of the RSLinx Enterprise hassles.

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Again so what, this has always been more or less true of the larger PanelView style products, but that does not stop customers from using them because RSView32 + PC + Industrial Monitor was NOT actually what the customer wanted. For a kickoff, no HD and much lower administration hassles, plus an industrial rated panel mounted HMI all in one package. Sure you can deliver more software features and clevers with RSView32, and even at a lower initial purchase cost, but nine times out of ten, the customer is not buying a PanelView for those reasons.

Besides if you really don't want the PV+ hardware, the RSViewME Runtime will load on a PC anyhow. Going down this path might be worth it just for the ease of conversion aspect.

And Gerry if I can get my head around RSLinx Enterprise, surely it ain't beyond you?

IMHO Cutler Hammer PanelMates are a product that is equivalent to the PanelView with regard to hardware. Their development software is simply superior to PanelBuilder32 in every aspect. Note: I have not used the WinCE based panelview+ products. Cutler Hammer Panelmate config software provides all the flexibility you need to do anything a panelview can do (and more) and you can master it in eight hours. They offer DH+/RIO connectivity. Conversion from one of their older models to a newer one is automatic (just a few mouse clicks). Also, they don't scrap their product and start over every couple of years, as Rockwell has been doing with Panelviews and the programming software. We've been using them for at least twelve years and can still buy hardware that's mechanically and software compatible with the stuff we started with.

OkiePC said:

IMHO Cutler Hammer PanelMates are a product that is equivalent to the PanelView with regard to hardware. Their development software is simply superior to PanelBuilder32 in every aspect. Note: I have not used the WinCE based panelview+ products. Cutler Hammer Panelmate config software provides all the flexibility you need to do anything a panelview can do (and more) and you can master it in eight hours. They offer DH+/RIO connectivity. Conversion from one of their older models to a newer one is automatic (just a few mouse clicks). Also, they don't scrap their product and start over every couple of years, as Rockwell has been doing with Panelviews and the programming software. We've been using them for at least twelve years and can still buy hardware that's mechanically and software compatible with the stuff we started with.

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Last time i had a quote for a cutler hammer equivalent to a 1400e on dh+ it was nearly a £1000 dearer, this was a few years back though

True, but this problem was forced on Rockwell by Microsoft and is in the past now. Besides in many cases the local distributors simply did their best to cover the cost for their good customers.

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As you know, there is but one "distributor" in this country (in spite of whatever they're currently trying to set up). The response to seeking the WinCE upgrade for a RAC6182 (fore-runner of the PV+) was a discounted price ona PV+!! Incidentally, there is a KB article advising not to bother upgrading RAC6182's from v2 to v3 as there is no gain to be had but you're likely to run out of memory. If a customer got on the PV+ bandwagon early because of OEM supplied equipment and ends up with units at versions 2, 3.0, 3.1, 3.2, etc. ad nauseum, who is going to sort out his maintenance headache?

Sure is easy to criticise past issues Gerry, but Ver 3.2 has been out for several months now and if you buy anything new it SHOULD be Ver 3.2.(And if not the seller should fix it pronto.)

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This is an on-going problem. The PV+ you bought a few months ago is not compatible with the one you buy today and the one you buy a few months from now won't be compatible with either of the previous ones.

Also true, but so what...that is what the Application Manager is for...to manage backups, restores, etc. Frankly I don't care where the application is on my HD, so long as I can back it up and transfer it to another PC, or perform any of the other tasks the Application Manager does for me.

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SO WHAT?? How would like to have RSLogix behave like that?

As for not being able to upload from the PVPlus terminal, can you then explain to me what the tab on the <File Transfer Utility> called "Upload" is used for?

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That allows you to upload the compiled application - which you can do absolutely nothing with, except download to another PV+ that must be identical in every respect to the one you uploaded from. Is there anything else that Rockwell makes with this ridiculous impediment?

RSView32 + PC + Industrial Monitor was NOT actually what the customer wanted. For a kickoff, no HD and much lower administration hassles, plus an industrial rated panel mounted HMI all in one package.

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I'm talking about an integrated package (one piece) that may have a HD or disk-on-chip. Administration hassles?? compared to RSView Studio versions and firmware??

Sure you can deliver more software features and clevers with RSView32, and even at a lower initial purchase cost, but nine times out of ten, the customer is not buying a PanelView for those reasons.

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My whole point is - use a standard PanelView or go for RSView32 on a PC. The intermediate step of PV+ just isn't worth the trouble.

Besides if you really don't want the PV+ hardware, the RSViewME Runtime will load on a PC anyhow. Going down this path might be worth it just for the ease of conversion aspect.

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I would have to be insane to recommend that to anybody.

And Gerry if I can get my head around RSLinx Enterprise, surely it ain't beyond you?

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Not beyond me, just an incredible waste of time and effort for no benefit.

If a customer got on the PV+ bandwagon early because of OEM supplied equipment and ends up with units at versions 2, 3.0, 3.1, 3.2, etc. ad nauseum, who is going to sort out his maintenance headache?

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I'll grant you that the RAC6182 is now a bit of an orphan, but it IS PV+ that we are talking about. As for a maintenance headache, well just two weekends ago I upgraded a 3.0 to 3.2. It took about an hour and a half, mostly because I forgot to delete the stored apps before I started. In essence the terminal upgrade is not qualitatively different in any way to the same process in CLX. The limitation at present is that you can only have one version of Studio installed on your PC, as per the same limitation of RSLogix5000 pre-Ver10. We lived with that for a few years and the world didn't come to an end; ie if you have to work on a terminal just upgrade it to the lastest version.

How would like to have RSLogix behave like that?

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Well actually I would. I have a very nice VB application that I run that acts as Software Repository to and from my backup server. In essence it automates the "checking in/out" of project apps to a default directory on the laptop. I never even bother looking in there, I just use the VB app to backup/restore it to the repository directory. Becomes very useful when collaborating with others. The Studio Application Manager is essentially doing the same thing.

except download to another PV+ that must be identical in every respect to the one you uploaded from.

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Yes but it CAN upload, which is not what you said in the first place. Sure you are just uploading compiled target code, but it IS WinCE that it is running on after all! And this is much the case with many other non-Rockwell compiled HMI products. I concede that this it makes it important to protect the source project, but PV+ is not alone in the automation world in this respect. Come to think of it, more than a few OEM's might regard this aspect as a positive feature.

I would have to be insane to recommend that to anybody.

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Not so. I've just done a nice little job converting an old PV Standard project to run on a PC based RSView ME Runtime. The client was happy with the price, it runs well, a spot of mucking around with the graphics and I actually made a buck on that one. OK so I am insane...maybe you knew it all along.

As for the alledged hassles of RSLinx Enterprise I'm surprised you haven't spotted the benefits. One of the aspects of big CLX systems with mulitple networks is that there is a huge range of potential local and target paths, and unlike the standard RSLinx, the Enterprise version lets you administer all these possible combinations of paths remotely. But the real biggie is OPC Tag Browsing and the support for Direct Tags...WAY worth the little extra thinking to set up Enterprise.

I'm not knocking your preference for RSView32 here, but I've been using RSViewME for a while now and despite the acknowledged hiccups at Ver 3.0 and 3.1 I actually quite like it.

As PV+ Is Win CE how stable is it ?

I am not a great fan of Windows based OS's due to blue screens and constant service packs!

I have not used Win CE except for the fact that i bought the missus a GPS Sat Nav system for her car, on our first long trip away on the motorway the system locked up and needed a re-boot, by which time i could have been lost! (It runs Win CE)

As for only being to upload the compiled code,
As the unit is on Win CE can you access the HDD? Ie can you transfer over the PV+ app before compilation onto a directory ??

If my customer has say 7 units over the next few years, all different revisions, then presumably id need rsview studio at all revisions to program these ?

And if they wanted to have a spare in the stores presumably if the units were different revisions then the spare wouldnt be interchangable ??

A little confused..............

504bloke said:

As for only being to upload the compiled code,
As the unit is on Win CE can you access the HDD? Ie can you transfer over the PV+ app before compilation onto a directory ??

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The PV+ doesn't have a HDD. I think you would overflow the available memory if you tried to copy the project files into the PV+.

504bloke said:

If my customer has say 7 units over the next few years, all different revisions, then presumably id need rsview studio at all revisions to program these ?

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You got it in one! And you can have only one version installed at a time. And if you have more than one customer....

504bloke said:

And if they wanted to have a spare in the stores presumably if the units were different revisions then the spare wouldnt be interchangable ??

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Right on target again!

Gerry

Other than the PV+ which i do like as i could migrate the PV1400e stuff to it easily

What Op screens would you recommend that are DH+ and nema rated ?

My customer has the 1400e's on the plant floor and it is a fairly harsh enviroment, and the operatros are even harsher!

I must say i find it hard to believe that AB has the PV+ out there but it seems thats its not as flexible as the older PV's!