Siemens Step7 - File > SaveAs on ONLINE Project

Hi everyone!
I have a question for the Siemens Step7 gurus out there. But first, some background!
There's also a TL;DR at bottom if you don't care about why I'm asking.

When I first started programming in Step7, I was taught the following procedure whenever I went to make mods to a program:
1. Open up my latest copy of program
2. Go online
3. Copy the main FC blocks from the online version to the offline version (these FC blocks are all that are ever really changed)
4. Close the online version
5. SaveAs the Offline version as "My_Program 13Oct16 Original"
6. SaveAs the Offline version as "My_Program 13Oct16"

Now I'd know I had the most recent program, "My_Program 13Oct16", open, and could make any mods to the program, knowing that I had a copy of the original program as well in case any of my mods went awry.

However, the other day I was tasked with changing the IP address of a Step7 PLC, but I was unable to download the Hardware Configuration (I was online via RS232). This was determined to be because I didn't have a recent enough version of WinCC Flexible package installed. The lack of this package prevented me from seeing/modifying the remnants of an abandoned Siemens HMI Application located inside my Project. This abandoned HMI Application was then preventing me from downloading the Hardware Configuration (I guess because it had a different Subnet mask or IP assigned than was allowed in my new configuration?).

The solution was then to have another fellow (who had an up-to-date version of WinCC Flexible) get online with the PLC. He then deleted the abandoned HMI Application and was subsequently able to download the Hardware Configuration. So I thought cool, IP successfully changed!

Well apparently, because I didn't have the right version of WinCC Flexible, I couldn't upload the Hardware Configuration to my copy of the Project either. So I was very happily connected via RS232, but I couldn't get my offline version's Hardware Configuration to match that of the new online version Hardware Configuration in order to connect via Ethernet. The fellow who had downloaded the Hardware Configuration had disappeared, otherwise he could've just sent me a copy.

So the way I finally got an offline copy of the project with the correct Hardware Configuration was to go online via RS232, and then File > SaveAs the entire project. I was then able to disconnect the RS232 and connect via Ethernet using my newly acquired offline project.

So my question and TL;DR:

Is there some reason not to get online with a Siemens Step7 PLC and just File > SaveAs the entire ONLINE project in SIMATIC Manager? The symbols remained, the comments remained, the DBs remained.
It seems like the vast majority of people suggest something similar to the procedure I listed at the top of this post. But if you can just File > SaveAs the entire thing, then why go through an entire procedure?

The one thing I did find on the internet that seems to say what I did was OK practice is the "Description" in the attached image.

Thanks for any and all help! It is much appreciated!

schmidt

I am not entirely sure what you are asking?

Are you talking about Simatic Manager or TIA? Because, as far as I know (I may be wrong), WinCC will not do anything to your PLC hardware in SIMATIC MANAGER.

First of all. If you are certain you are holding the last version of the program (offline), your blocks online will be the same. BUT the values inside of the DB's might be different. So really only thing to download from PLC is DB's.

Another thing to note. There are no symbols and comments in online programs. These exist only offline.

mcjschmidt said:

So my question and TL;DR:

Is there some reason not to get online with a Siemens Step7 PLC and just File > SaveAs the entire ONLINE project in SIMATIC Manager? The symbols remained, the comments remained, the DBs remained.

Click to expand...

The only reasons not to would be problems like you described - something changed in the project outside of the blocks. In this case it sounds like the offline you were given didn't match the online.
As Boneless mentioned, it is a good idea to always know whether and how the values in the DBs should be reconciled whenever you reconnect to the online project.

I suggest reviewing the version control policy of your employer and/or the customer. Something fell through the cracks.

boneless said:

Are you talking about Simatic Manager or TIA? Because, as far as I know (I may be wrong), WinCC will not do anything to your PLC hardware in SIMATIC MANAGER.

Click to expand...

I'm talking about Simatic Manager. And I don't think it was that it was necessarily doing anything to my PLC hardware in SM. I think this is what happened:

• Whoever had written the original program started creating a Siemens HMI app using a newer version of WinCC.
• Said person assigned the HMI app an IP address before switching the HMI app to Wonderware and leaving the Siemens HMI app behind.
• When I tried to change the Subnet mask (from 255.255.252.0 to 255.255.255.0) in the PLC Hardware Config, I got an error saying: "The subnet mask is based on a different address class than the IP address".
• I think for whatever reason, the IP address that had been assigned to the Siemens HMI app was conflicting with the new subnet mask being assigned to the PLC.

However, I'm still rather new to Siemens, so I'm really just speculating based on the error message I got, and the way the problem was eventually solved.

boneless said:

Another thing to note. There are no symbols and comments in online programs. These exist only offline.

Click to expand...

Ah! Thank you, that's a nice little tidbit.

RVaughan said:

The only reasons not to would be problems like you described - something changed in the project outside of the blocks. In this case it sounds like the offline you were given didn't match the online.

Click to expand...

Well, the offline was a total copy of the online, until the other fellow deleted the Siemens HMI app and changed the Hardware Config and left. So the blocks were actually the same throughout the entire process. Only difference was my offline Hardware Config vs. the PLC's online Hardware Config. It was only by my selecting File > SaveAs for the entire online project, that I was able to essentially "upload" the online Hardware Config to my computer. But it's sounding like this is generally not good practice - so stick to original procedure if possible.

RVaughan said:

As Boneless mentioned, it is a good idea to always know whether and how the values in the DBs should be reconciled whenever you reconnect to the online project.

Click to expand...

I think I understand what you're both saying. As far as I'm aware, the DB values are either populated via gauge readings, or assigned via the HMI. So in that sense, me having the latest DB values isn't vital.

I'd just like to say thank you to the both of you for taking the time to respond to my question. I'm sorry for any lack of clarity in my post, but as I stated earlier, I'm still quite new to Step7.

mcjschmidt said:

When I first started programming in Step7, I was taught the following procedure whenever I went to make mods to a program:
1. Open up my latest copy of program
2. Go online
3. Copy the main FC blocks from the online version to the offline version (these FC blocks are all that are ever really changed)
4. Close the online version
5. SaveAs the Offline version as "My_Program 13Oct16 Original"
6. SaveAs the Offline version as "My_Program 13Oct16"

Click to expand...

This is a dangerous procedure, and not the way I would do it.
Here is my suggestion:
1. Open old project.
2. Perform an offline/online block compare.
3. Based on the offline/online compare:
3A. If offline/online matches (except for some actual values in DBs being different), then you are good to go. You can make changes in the offline project and download them to the CPU. This is the normal situation, because if offline/online do not match, then someone has been sloppy or even screwed up.
3B. If offline/online do NOT match, first save your project under a new name, and then you must investigate each individual difference meticolously. And you must decide to either ditch the online differences, or to copy them over in the offline project. DO NOT drag-drop online OB/FC/FB blocks to the offline project. Your comments may become unsyncronized ! The best way is to update the different rungs individually. If there are new rungs or deleted for example, when you insert or delete the rungs to match, the rung comments in the existing program wont be messed up.
When everything matches up again, then you can proceed normally.

As for hardware differences, then there are normally no differences in the real hardware (otherwise the program wouldnt run). The only differences will be in such "softer" things as network parameters or configured connections. Again, you must investigate and decide to ditch or take over the differences.