automation for tractors ...

I ran across the article linked below in the news today ...

this doesn't involve PLCs - but some of the potenial "issues" involved might be interesting for some of our members to at least "think about" ... especially the part about proposed legislation - and the part about the hackers from Ukraine ...

"You want to replace a transmission and you take it to an independent mechanic — he can put in the new transmission, but the tractor can't drive out of the shop,” Kevin Kenney, a farmer in Nebraska, told Motherboard. “Deere charges $230, plus $130 an hour, for a technician to drive out and plug a connector into their USB port to authorize the part."

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and now for the "lawyer" piece of the puzzle ...

According to Motherboard, Nebraska is one of eight states that are considering right-to-repair legislation that would invalidate John Deere's license agreement,

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http://www.foxnews.com/tech/2017/03...g-hacked-software-for-john-deere-repairs.html

personally, I don't have an opinion at all on this subject - but I thought that some of you guys might see a parallel in how the "industrial automation" trade might possibly be affected by something similar in the future ...

party on ...

Stop buying Deere tractors. Free market will sort this out if other options are available.
Unfortunately that will not help the customers currently impacted.

GTUnit,

You may not be a farmer, but let's say you farm several hundred acres and that $150K tractor breaks down. you call your local John Deere shop and ask for help. We'll get to you as soon as we can, we have 3 ahead of you.

2 weeks later he shows up !!
don't laugh, it happens.

can't state that other tractor manufacturers aren't doing the same.

I own a farm, 50 acres and rent it out to a neighbor who works 500+ acres.
downtime is serious with that much to do.

I farmed for 10 solid years with others working 200+ acres.
I still work for my neighbor when I can.


james

Funny thing is, the farming industry especially in Europe is way farther ahead than you think. Autonomous tractors, self driving machinery, gps that is +/- 1" year to year to prevent too much ground compaction. Smart seeders. Since most machinery runs in a big field with a lot less stuff to run over if it goes haywire, they adopted autonomous machinery alot faster than vehicles that drive on roads. Companies are working on vision systems that can distinguish between weeds and crops and spray just the weeds with herbicide. Even dairy is adopting robotics for milking, the cow knows when it needs to be milked so it goes to the milking machine, an RFID tag tells the system what cow it is, a robot cleans the teats and put on the suction cups and it does its thing, when done, it then cleans the teats and the cow walks out. The milk is analysed automatically for proteins and fat content before it is sent to storage.

Edmhydraulics said:

Funny thing is, the farming industry especially in Europe is way farther ahead than you think. Autonomous tractors, self driving machinery, gps that is +/- 1" year to year to prevent too much ground compaction. Smart seeders. Since most machinery runs in a big field with a lot less stuff to run over if it goes haywire, they adopted autonomous machinery alot faster than vehicles that drive on roads. Companies are working on vision systems that can distinguish between weeds and crops and spray just the weeds with herbicide. Even dairy is adopting robotics for milking, the cow knows when it needs to be milked so it goes to the milking machine, an RFID tag tells the system what cow it is, a robot cleans the teats and put on the suction cups and it does its thing, when done, it then cleans the teats and the cow walks out. The milk is analysed automatically for proteins and fat content before it is sent to storage.

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And we pass the saving on to the customer. Yeah RIGHT!

I totally understand. I read the original article describing what you mentioned. That is a pretty ridiculous way to service customers that cannot afford down time.

My point was that what happens when farmers stop buying Deere tractors for this reason and go with another brand from now on. That will motivate Deere to get their act together pretty fast.

James Mcquade said:

GTUnit,

You may not be a farmer, but let's say you farm several hundred acres and that $150K tractor breaks down. you call your local John Deere shop and ask for help. We'll get to you as soon as we can, we have 3 ahead of you.

2 weeks later he shows up !!
don't laugh, it happens.

can't state that other tractor manufacturers aren't doing the same.

I own a farm, 50 acres and rent it out to a neighbor who works 500+ acres.
downtime is serious with that much to do.

I farmed for 10 solid years with others working 200+ acres.
I still work for my neighbor when I can.


james

Click to expand...

GTUnit said:

I totally understand. I read the original article describing what you mentioned. That is a pretty ridiculous way to service customers that cannot afford down time.

My point was that what happens when farmers stop buying Deere tractors for this reason and go with another brand from now on. That will motivate Deere to get their act together pretty fast.

Click to expand...

The exact opposite of this is also possible. It is also possible that other companies will follow in John Deere's foot steps and it becomes the industry standard.

To a large extent, GTUnit is correct. The market will sort it out. If you want the autonomous tractor that you can program to plow your field without having to drive it yourself, you'll probably have to be willing to limit yourself to OEM-approved parts and repairs. If you're willing to drive the rig yourself, you'll be able to work with equipment that is fully functional but somewhat less than state-of-the-art.

I, for one, will feel nervous about being on the same highway as the autonomous semi that's been serviced by the guy who used the Ukrainian hack to tinker with the rig's control software. The trouble is, I'll probably have no way of telling until the rig swerves into my lane as we're passing each other.

Some aspects of the PLC business have the same mindset. If an analog module goes bad, just about anyone can pull out the old and plug in the new, often without even shutting down. But if the CPU module fails you need an "authorized" technician, meaning someone with access to the proper software and a backup of the program to get going again.

I have a CNC machine tending project right now that uses <insert name here> lathes and they have a built-in, I'm told, GPS sensor (probably an accelerometer) that detects if the machine has been moved and locks out the control requiring a service call for big $$$. I didn't believe it until I witnessed it.

Years back (2001???) I bought an Epson printer (model 777 if my memory is any good) that would only use Epson brand ink cartridges, and they could not be refilled and used again - each cartridge had a control on it that monitored it's use, the control said when the cartridge was out of ink (most of the time there was ink left) and the printer wouldn't print if the cartridge said out.

Epson lost a lawsuit on that one, but it took years and by that time I replaced it, but they had to issue a firmware update to all printers so aftermarket and refilled cartridges could be used.

That also was the last Epson printer I ever bought.

James Mcquade said:

2 weeks later he shows up !!
don't laugh, it happens.

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OMG.... 6 months ago I scheduled a service on my Kubota they called me last week and said they would be in the area soon

Aabeck said:

Years back (2001???) I bought an Epson printer (model 777 if my memory is any good) that would only use Epson brand ink cartridges, and they could not be refilled and used again - each cartridge had a control on it that monitored it's use, the control said when the cartridge was out of ink (most of the time there was ink left) and the printer wouldn't print if the cartridge said out.

Epson lost a lawsuit on that one, but it took years and by that time I replaced it, but they had to issue a firmware update to all printers so aftermarket and refilled cartridges could be used.

That also was the last Epson printer I ever bought.

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Lexmark actually won their lawsuit and set the standard that this could be done as long as the package contained a notification that the cartridge could not be refilled.

As far as farmers being able to service their own equipment though, I mean, they are farmers. Around here we always give mediocre electricians **** about "being farmers" when their conduit runs look like ****. Why? Because they are so far away from anything, they have to learn to fix it themselves, there isn't really any getting around it. The real battle here is ownership. If you buy something tangible, you should own it.

"Market will sort it out" sorry, had to laugh at this. Everything electronic has been heading this way for a long time now. Gaming systems, phones, even PCs (UEFI boot anyone? ) etc all try to prevent anything 3rd party from being used.

Gov needs to step in and tell all these overreaching companies to **** off. If I buy something I should be able to do anything I want with it within the law. I understand that if I load my own software that the manufacturer is no longer liable for anything.

A group of iphone repair shop owners are helping make an argument for that bill. If you wash your phone you ahould be able to have someone to recover the pbone or the data on it without paying Apple just to teplace it.

Epy said:

"Market will sort it out" sorry, had to laugh at this. Everything electronic has been heading this way for a long time now. Gaming systems, phones, even PCs (UEFI boot anyone? ) etc all try to prevent anything 3rd party from being used.

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Thanks... everyone is now so surprised when this has been slowly going on for decades. Back in the day, if you bought electronics you would get the schematic to go with it. The schematic was long gone before the miniaturization of components started but no one cared.
Now all of a sudden is a huge problem.

Epy said:

Gov needs to step in and tell all these overreaching companies to **** off. If I buy something I should be able to do anything I want with it within the law. I understand that if I load my own software that the manufacturer is no longer liable for anything.

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I understand where you are coming from... I also would like to repair my stuff within reason.
But looking from a company's perspective when almost everyone:

- Carries a camera in their pockets.
- Wants to impress friends.
- Doesn't look for the truth, just the instant rush of learning something that in most cases is more black than white.

I wouldn't want to risk having my brand all over facebook or twitter because it exploded without even being investigated what caused and if it was a poor repair that did it or a genuine fault.