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Old November 12th, 2018, 11:20 AM   #16
IdealDan
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Mcquade View Post
One thing you MUST consider !

the hours quoted are from members who have been doing programming for years. They don't have a learning curve.

we don't know your application.
we don't have a scope of work or sequence of events.
we don't know your programming software, interface, or hmi.
we don't know your programming experience and capabilities.

I don't mean to be rude or mean, but you must look at the process, scope of supply and sequence of events, safeties and plc interface to other systems, manual controls, documentation required, commissioning, prove out, and your own capabilities and come up with your own time estimate.

if you quote 50 hrs based on what we tell you and it takes you 60, that's ok, you were close. but if it takes you 200 hrs for example, then that's another matter and I don't know how to over come it because you went by what we would quote based on none of the information I have listed. if we had all the information, our time may have gone up to 200 hours.

as I said, look at all the information and come up with a time frame that you are comfortable with.

james
You are correct,
I already scheduled time.
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Old November 12th, 2018, 11:20 AM   #17
tragically1969
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Quote:
Originally Posted by James Mcquade View Post
One thing you MUST consider !

the hours quoted are from members who have been doing programming for years. They don't have a learning curve.

we don't know your application.
we don't have a scope of work or sequence of events.
we don't know your programming software, interface, or hmi.
we don't know your programming experience and capabilities.

I don't mean to be rude or mean, but you must look at the process, scope of supply and sequence of events, safeties and plc interface to other systems, manual controls, documentation required, commissioning, prove out, and your own capabilities and come up with your own time estimate.

if you quote 50 hrs based on what we tell you and it takes you 60, that's ok, you were close. but if it takes you 200 hrs for example, then that's another matter and I don't know how to over come it because you went by what we would quote based on none of the information I have listed. if we had all the information, our time may have gone up to 200 hours.

as I said, look at all the information and come up with a time frame that you are comfortable with.

james
I agree 100%

Nobody is going to give the OP an open order for x amount of hours (if they do then more fool them) you need to look at the application and assess it's scope and your capabilities against that, if it's 50 I/O of basic program then 20 hours will do the job, if its PID, data logging, complex interlocking, flashy HMI graphics, SCADA top end then that's a whole different job.

When i contracted i wouldn't even offer a quote until i had seen a spec or had an initial meet, then submitted RFI's if required, then when you are happy its withing your capabilities (not everything is all the time) put some figures on the table, at point of order develop a DesOps or Scope document to protect yourself and the customer so there are no surprises when he turn round and says "oh i thought you would juts do that anyway, you are the expert"

Go into this unprepared by using other peoples rates and you are going to get bitten and end up working for $0.01 an hour unless you are careful.
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Old November 12th, 2018, 11:22 AM   #18
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Also do not forget markup for profit. Bill out your people at a higher rate than you pay them. 20% is usual markup.
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Old November 12th, 2018, 12:48 PM   #19
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With all the details given (very little)

if a hard price is really needed, I would say $900,000 in 3 draws.
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Old November 12th, 2018, 01:50 PM   #20
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dowmace View Post
With all the details given (very little)

if a hard price is really needed, I would say $900,000 in 3 draws.
Interesting.... nothing down? I usually like to cover the hardware with a down payment
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Old November 12th, 2018, 04:04 PM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jstolaruk View Post
Other factors that have a big impact on price: some mfg firms have PLC & HMI template that have to be used/followed (GM & Ford for instance) and have plant communications that have to supported. Or safety PLCs must be used. These customer requirements can't be accounted for just by the quantity of I/O. Know your customer and their expectations.
I helped a friend out with a GM job earlier this year where the new system was being added to an old one. Thus competing GCCS specs.

Between doing and re-doing the PLC code to fit whatever whim the plant engineer was favoring that day, to trying to attend to a Project Manager who thought that the best way to ru(i)n the project was to have my old partner in meetings half of the day to ask him why he wasn't finished, I doubt that they made a dime on that job.

That same PM tried to make all of us sit in on one of his marathon meetings, I quickly found something else to do, and somewhere else to do it.
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Old November 12th, 2018, 04:37 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by rootboy View Post
I helped a friend out with a GM job earlier this year where the new system was being added to an old one. Thus competing GCCS specs.

Between doing and re-doing the PLC code to fit whatever whim the plant engineer was favoring that day, to trying to attend to a Project Manager who thought that the best way to ru(i)n the project was to have my old partner in meetings half of the day to ask him why he wasn't finished, I doubt that they made a dime on that job.

That same PM tried to make all of us sit in on one of his marathon meetings, I quickly found something else to do, and somewhere else to do it.
When its a GM job, I usually get 50% over what would be a "normal" charge. So I have to put up with it; I'm getting paid for it. But it sure can be painful.
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Old November 12th, 2018, 08:48 PM   #23
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One million dollars..... Hahaha jk
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Old November 12th, 2018, 10:21 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by jstolaruk View Post
When its a GM job, I usually get 50% over what would be a "normal" charge. So I have to put up with it; I'm getting paid for it. But it sure can be painful.
That sounds about right. If their designs would work out of the box, then that would be one thing. But they usually don't anywhere other than in the Body Shop.

To be fair, they have gotten a lot better, the first versions of "Common Controls" in GA were uncommonly bad...
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Old November 12th, 2018, 10:22 PM   #25
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One million dollars..... Hahaha jk
Pinky to mouth, of course...
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Old November 13th, 2018, 08:21 AM   #26
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Plc rm7500

hmi rm2500
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Old November 13th, 2018, 08:22 AM   #27
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Old November 13th, 2018, 08:42 AM   #28
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Originally Posted by geniusintraining View Post
Interesting.... nothing down? I usually like to cover the hardware with a down payment
This is unlikely to fly with some companies... still worth trying though. The reason being that should the company go under, the material that has already ben paid for isn't in the hands of who paid for it. I've been lucky in the past that the company went under just before we issued the PO, so there was no payment taken...
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Old November 13th, 2018, 10:54 AM   #29
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I usually get a down payment that covers all the hardware and covers the value of my time up to the next benchmark (not any profit - that is usually the payment(s) after commissioning.)

And, remember for GM that they require CAD prints using E-Plan, a significant investment ($10,000 - 24,000) for an independent businessman. I have not done any work directly for GM (have done builds for Tier-1 suppliers) but the first one I do will have to have the cost of E-Plan worked into the quote somewhere.
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Old November 13th, 2018, 11:56 AM   #30
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Quote:
Originally Posted by IdealDan View Post
Hi guys,

HOW MUCH WILL BE AVERAGE CHARGE FOR ...AND HMI (separate).
My standard answer for how long will the HMI programming take is "As long as you want it to".

That is tongue in cheek but most end users will refine and refine and add and change to HMI design until forever if there is nothing defined up front.

Define a set number of screens

Design the screens first and get sign off before doing the PLC if possible. Otherwise, you may find yourself writing logic for things that don't exist or missing base code that will make things easier down the road.

There is a huge difference between an HMI designed just to replace pilot lights and pushbuttons and one using a lot of advanced features like time stamped alarms, data base integration, alarming, recipes etc.

Depending on your knowledge level and experience, put in at least 1 day just to deal with communications between the HMI and PLC.
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