automation for tractors ...

personally I'm not really "into" tractors - but here's another tractor-related post that I made a couple of years ago ...

http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?p=628036&postcount=8

anyway ...

my reason for starting this current thread was speculating on how long it might be before some automation customer tries going to court to gain access to the "protected" PLC code in his automated factory ...

I've had to inform quite a few of my potential customers that they would be wasting their money to send their maintenance workers to a training class on their ControlLogix systems - since the vendor who wrote the program refuses to give them access to the code ...

I've heard that some companies are now insisting (in the specifications of the initial contract) that ALL of the code must be open and accessible - or "no deal" ...

oh, and by the way, and they want it ALL written in "plain vanilla" good old-fashioned ladder logic too ...

FULL DISCLOSURE: I make a decent living teaching maintenance workers how to decipher Structured Text, Function Block Diagrams, Sequential Function Charts, Equipment Phases - and so on ... so personally I say if a programmer wants to use those techniques then "bring it on" ($$$) ... I'm just reporting what I'm hearing more and more from the maintenance managers out in the trenches who are trying to keep their plants' machinery running to fulfill those "Just In Time" orders ...

for any beginners who don't understand what "Just In Time" manufacturing is - it means that a manufacturer doesn't produce any "extra" product and store it on a warehouse shelf ... instead, the company waits until a customer orders the product - and then they make the product and ship it out "Just In Time" ... so ... the "Just In Time" manufacturing system is sort of like "Socialism" - in that both plans seem to make perfect sense "on paper" - but they both tend to suffer in their execution ... specifically, "Just In Time" only works WHEN THE MACHINERY WORKS ... and whenever the machinery suddenly quits working (often at 3:00 o'clock in the morning) - the company doesn't just lose an "order" - they lose a CUSTOMER - who incidentally NEEDS that order so that he can make HIS "Just In Time" system work ... and the poor plant maintenance manager now has a devil of a time explaining to his regional manager WHY the valued customer has been lost ...

so ...

I'm just wondering how long it will be before manufacturing companies begin legal proceedings to gain access to automation code that their vendors have "locked up" ... the part in the original news article about eight states currently considering legislation to "invalidate" the signed John Deere contracts was the part that I personally found to be the most intriguing part of the story ...

party on ...

I don't see a problem with the client having a copy of the software and the PLC password protected to only allow reading (to monitor the program).

We all agree that this is a great troubleshooting tool and manuals are generally not very descriptive (especially with regards of sequences and conditions in sequences).

On the other hand having the software also allows the company, if they have someone qualified in their employ, to check for issues in the software and possibly find bugs.

I had one such example with a crane where it would put out an alarm randomly of low brake pressure. This was enough to stop the crane picking up loads... after all mechanical checks, nothing was found and we contacted the manufacturer... they unwillingly and only when pushed with the fact that it's a minimum of two weeks to arrange for a technician to come on site, gave us the software with clear instructions to change the alarm limit. Basically told us to change the alarm limit from 500ms to 2 seconds.

The guy on site did this and lo and behold, the frequency of errors stayed the same or increased.

Now with the software, I started looking into this and found a bug where the timer checking for the brake pressure after activation of the valve was not reset if the brake was operated again.
I contacted them and was told that I was wrong and the software was "perfect"... until I wrote a report and sent it up in their organization (luckily I knew plenty of people there).

Had we not had the software and we would be stuck with unwilling supplier of equipment and a bug that although did not put at risk the operation, could mask a problem with the equipment.

So I'm definitely not surprised that people want to have all available tools at their disposal when production is on the line...

Ron Beaufort said:

for any beginners who don't understand what "Just In Time" manufacturing is - it means that a manufacturer doesn't produce any "extra" product and store it on a warehouse shelf ... instead, the company waits until a customer orders the product - and then they make the product and ship it out "Just In Time" ... so ... the "Just In Time" manufacturing system is sort of like "Socialism" - in that both plans seem to make perfect sense "on paper" - but they both tend to suffer in their execution ... specifically, "Just In Time" only works WHEN THE MACHINERY WORKS ... and whenever the machinery suddenly quits working (often at 3:00 o'clock in the morning) - the company doesn't just lose an "order" - they lose a CUSTOMER - who incidentally NEEDS that order so that he can make HIS "Just In Time" system work ... and the poor plant maintenance manager now has a devil of a time explaining to his regional manager WHY the valued customer has been lost ...

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I love that JIT stuff. It is great and comes from upper management being exposed to things like Lean Manufacturing Philosophy, the only thing is, main principal behind "lean" is eliminating waste. In order for lean to be effective it also requires cherry-picking of other philosophies such as TPM and Six Sigma in order to actually work effectively. It can work, and quite well as long as you maintain your equipment and have a PM and PDM system in place that is funded, followed and enforced from the top down. Engineering and maintenance can be value-added in the process if its value is seen.

geniusintraining said:

You are the first I have heard that regrets spending money on a tractor... I have a 4 in one bucket and love it, it has helped me so many times that without it I could of never got it done

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I love tractors and they are a great help. But there have been a number of issues with this one.

Let's just say that this may be one of those Lemons. Without going into detail, I bought this 10 years ago this month. Only have 388 hours on it. I don't use it that much. Basic moving dirt, grading driveway, moving brush, plowing snow... You get it.

Well, if you add up all the mechanical and hydraulic repairs during those hours, it cost about $24.00 per hour to operate so far. Some repairs that Kubota acknowledged were covered under warranty. They do not cover hydraulics tho. 5 new cylinders.

Now, there are electrical problems...

Basic lemon. I got stuck with it, but I do have 2 people interested in buying it.

Playing devils advocate here.

lets say you buy a brand new John Deere 8420 (i'm familiar with this brand) for 150K (guess on my part, but close).
And let's say it doesn't do what you want, so you use your little device and
change some of the settings in the system (boost hp, sup up the turbo, and torque).
everything works great for 2 hours, then boom, you tear out the transmission, torque converter, and motor.
No problem, just change the settings back and call the dealer!
John Deere replaces the tractor free of charge and then does a detailed examination of the blown up tractor and discover what you did.

Is it fair for them to replace the tractor because you were responsible?

the man who works my farm also worked for a local John Deere dealer and
their technician knew what he was doing and could tell when to back off the settings. no issue ever that I know of and he is in high demand year round.

regards,
james

padees said:

Let's just say that this may be one of those Lemons.

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That really sucks... I have never had an issue with mine other than trying to get people to service it, I do wish I had gone up maybe another 10/20hp as its a little weak when filling the bucket with rock (its only a 45hp)

Wait one time I mixed in gas with the fuel and it ran like **** until I drained it out but that was all me

James Mcquade said:

Playing devils advocate here.

Click to expand...

James where in the hell did that come from ?

it's back in the news again


http://www.msn.com/en-us/money/tech...-actually-fix-them/ar-BByB9sZ?ocid=spartandhp

geniusintraining,

Just putting a twist on what the John Deere Tech told me.
He said you have to know the design specs of the system or else you can tear things up real quick.

james