PLCs are going software? Soft-PLC vs Hard PLC

kallileo

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Really interesting analysis on if, why and when Soft PLCs are going to replace standard Hard PLCs in the industry.

https://iot-analytics.com/soft-plc-industrial-innovators-dilemma/

There are hundreds of millions hard PLCs installed in various industries around the world but it's possible that in the near future for new installations Soft PLCs running on small industrial PC controllers will be preferred as they run simultaneously PLC logic, vision, Docker, routing services or any other software applications without the need to have a separate controller for each task in the control panel.
If low cost Linux based controllers like Wago PFC200 can run Docker and software like Codesys and Twincat becoming more popular year by year you can imagine where the future is going.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeVhWc4ReHc
 
I do think that soft-PLCs will become gradually more prevalent.

The article lost me immediately with its silly comparison of Kodak and Film vs. Digital to Siemens/RA/ABB/Schneider and Soft vs Hard PLC.
Digital imaging have big genuine advantages over film that made it disruptive. Digital imaging enables something that was impossible with film, i.e. instantly transmitting images to be used in media with no delay. With film, you had to wait for the film to be processed.

What are the similar advantages that soft-plcs brings to the market that cannot be done with traditional PLCs ?

This is an example of how trying to force an argument by using a poor analogy sets you up to be counterargued easily.

Like I said, I do think that soft-PLCs will become more prevalent. But this article is awful.
 
kallileo, I read the same thing last night and posted my own before I had a chance to read yours... I agree with JesperMP I dont think you can compare Kodak, but if they wrote the article looking for traffic and to get people talking they did just that

JesperMP said:
The article lost me immediately with its silly comparison of Kodak and Film vs. Digital to Siemens/RA/ABB/Schneider and Soft vs Hard PLC.

VictorBit wrote a point of view in the thread I wrote http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=127474

Maybe I just dont get the verbiage of "soft PLC" or they dont when using it, to me a PLC is a PLC and a "soft" would not have I/O but then whats the point
 
Seems like it was back in the late '80s that I first started reading about how the SoftPLC would make the PLC obsolete. I suppose it could happen any day now.
 
kallileo, I read the same thing last night and posted my own before I had a chance to read yours... I agree with JesperMP I dont think you can compare Kodak, but if they wrote the article looking for traffic and to get people talking they did just that



VictorBit wrote a point of view in the thread I wrote http://www.plctalk.net/qanda/showthread.php?t=127474

Maybe I just dont get the verbiage of "soft PLC" or they dont when using it, to me a PLC is a PLC and a "soft" would not have I/O but then whats the point

Maybe a Mod can merge the two threads into one.

In my opinion there is no such a thing as Hard PLC.
I think the only thing that can be considered hard (no pun intended) is the code running on bare metal microcontroller.
There is always a real-time OS (QNX, VxWorks, Linux or Windows) on which the PLC runtime is running the logic and the whole package (hardware+software) is designed to run the logic and plc related tasks only.

The difference is that with "Soft PLC" the controllers are able to not just run the PLC logic but also various applications in parallel and take advantage of the modern multicore CPU architectures.
 
I got the point of the article, but I kind of agree with @JesperMP that the analogy fits only very roughly.


What are the similar advantages that soft-plcs brings to the market that cannot be done with traditional PLCs ?

The article mentioned some tools and techniques that the soft-PLCs bring to the table: containerization/Docker; VMs; Git; Object-Oriented Programming (OOP). These will matter to developers, and to high-end users controlling complex tasks; for a process that can get by with a set-it-and-forget-it ladder running a Micro8xx or S7 1200 with minimal, or no, HMI, they would be a waste of money.

If these "advantages" are indeed aimed at a particular segments of the market: developers and high-end users, then this does not fit the "Innovator's dilemma" model, where the new tech encroaches initially on the low-end of the market. And while that may be enough to grow market share, I doubt it is enough to be violently disruptive (yet).

  • Git
Git, and Gitflow in particular, are disruptive, but for developers. Git might be useful at the plant level but mainly as a way to restore functionality if something breaks down; however development and recovery are capital expenses, so this is not where the money is made.

  • Containers/Docker/VMs
I'm not sure I see this as much of an advantage; what containers bring to the table is a way to configure an environment inside an OS that does not involve configuring the host OS, and isolating the environment from the host OS. So if driver A would incompatible with driver B in the OS, put them in different containers or VMs. Also, they provide a way to put all the configuration in one place: if a soft-PLC breaks down, then I can replace the hardware and re-provision the containers, without as much concern for the firmware revision number. Being able to quickly replace failed hardware can be useful when downtime is measured int k$/h, but a decent spares and bakcup plan with hard-PLCs makes this less than disruptive.

  • OOP
I like programming, but more or less dislike all programming languages.

That said, each has its application E.g. ladder is great for the customer who outsources development but handles maintenance and troubleshooting internally: a tech is going to be able to troubleshoot a ladder diagram of contacts and coils, but will be lost if given CodeSys (or Python).

If a process can benefit from OOP, then it is likely a high-end process. CodeSys is not exactly elegant, to put it politely. If I had to do something complex on a soft-PLC I would prefer Python or C/C++, where, clumsy as they are, at least there is a plethora of libraries available to solve complex problems. But again, that is from a developer, not a low-end user with a simple process to run.

One thing this might do is push business logic closer to the process; with hard-PLCs that usually requires the additional cost of SCADA-like or edge solutions.

Another piece of this is reliability. There is something to be said for using a hard-PLC that has limited functionality with correspondingly limited ways it can go wrong, and has been tested with a large corporation backing it up. Am I going to call Linus Torvalds and say "Your OS put a couple of lift forks through the side of my tank. Whom do I sue?" And then later to find my own memory leak that caused it?

  • Web-based options
One advantage not mentioned is the possibility of full-featured web-based management. Every web-server on a hard-PLC I have seen is clunky at best, and tied to obsolete tech like ActiveX controls. To be able to manage, to query, to use a web-API, to build custome web interfaces and HMIs, to even program with any web client instead of expensive and version-sensitive applications, with real security, might be a significant benefit; if anything, this is the killer app.

  • Caveats
I made the case above that the soft-PLCs are not aimed at the low-end of the market. That is not strictly true: something like a RaspberryPI-based soft-PLC might be a cost-effective capital alternative to a low-end hard-PLC brick, but that savings would be a negligible part of any commercial implementation. So I think that market is mainly for hobbyists who can with a clear conscience put a low value on their time.

  • Summary
Soft-PLCs are a growing part of the market, but I am not sure they are disruptive according to the "Innovator's Dilemma" model. The possibilities of the all-in-one, web-managed PLC+HMI might get it there.
 
Last edited:
In my opinion there is no such a thing as Hard PLC.
[..]
There is always a real-time OS (QNX, VxWorks, Linux or Windows) on which the PLC runtime is running the logic and the whole package (hardware+software) is designed to run the logic and plc related tasks only.
Totally correct. The "hard" PLCs are really just controllers running a realtime OS that is totally locked down by the manufacturer.

The difference is that with "Soft PLC" the controllers are able to not just run the PLC logic but also various applications in parallel and take advantage of the modern multicore CPU architectures.
These things are not disruptive. A bit more convenient and a bit less expensive, yes. But disruptive, no.
 
@drbitboy, none of these things are disruptive.
You will run these OOP programs or webbased programs in parallel with the PLC runtime, no matter if the PLC is a locked down hard plc, or a runtime on an open platform.
If the OOP, Webprograms ect. runs on physically the same controller as the plc runtime is running on or another controller or PC, doesnt make much difference - except maybe for some convenience because you dont have to have multiple controllers, and lower cost.
The convenience and lower cost comes at a price though. Less relieable, long term spare parts issues, user mistakes, security issues, etc...

We dabbled a bit with Siemens S7-1515SP Open Controller, for the reasons of convenience and cost. There were plenty problems, so we will wait another 10 years before we try again.
 
@drbitboy, none of these things are disruptive.


Agreed, I don't think I was saying anything any different.


VictorBit in the other thread gave an example where the soft-PLC produced real savings, but that seems to be a higher-end, complex process. So rather than disrupting the market, it's expanding the market.


A significant number of the posts on this forum are about inter-device communications*. If anything, Soft-PLCs are more a threat to the near-realtime, SCADA-ish, add-on products that have to maintain interfaces with multiple hard-PLCs and their attendant, version-sensitive protocols.


* logging data to server/SQL/the cloud; HMI/PLC comms; cable pinouts; Modbus; CIP; etc.
 
I spent more time on the other thread, but in a nutshell: When is the last time your PLC crashed and burned? That's never for me. That's over 30 years of no crashes. Now how many weeks has it been since your PC crashed? I know it's not a matter of months or years.
 
I spent more time on the other thread, but in a nutshell: When is the last time your PLC crashed and burned? That's never for me. That's over 30 years of no crashes. Now how many weeks has it been since your PC crashed? I know it's not a matter of months or years.




There is an old joke about four sysadmins in a bar.


The first says "my VaX 11/780 system has been up for 20 days."


The seoncd says "My SunOS system has been up for 20 weeks"


The third says "My Linux system has been up for 20 months"


The fourth says "My WindowsNT system has be up fro 20 hours," and the others say "wow, that's impressive!"
 
If you have a machine that can be turned off and on every day like the office PC, I think it is perfectly feasible to use a soft PLC, but if it is a continuous operation equipment such as kilns that I installed in the past, that has to be up to a year running non-stop then for me a hard PLC is by far a better choice.
 
Now how many weeks has it been since your PC crashed? I know it's not a matter of months or years.


Maybe with Windows.


Then again, with Linux doing just a few things (running some I/O, a CodeSys or ladder program, and an HMI, a web server and some edge comms) it could easily be years or even decades; certainly longer than between PMs on the process it is controlling.
I have, and have had, Linux servers with a data pipeline, ingesting raw telemetry and other data, converting the telemetry to data products, running a web server, running a Jupyter server, running a database, sending out emails on watchdog alarms, automated backups, etc., running non-stop for years without any intervention at all. The only problems were when I forgot to turn off debugging messages in the logs and the disk fills up (got a bigger disk so that is irrelevant now).




Haha, as I wrote that, this Linux laptop locked up; that's how I like my irony. But this is a cheap retail laptop, and there is a lot more going on here than would be for a soft-PLC.
 
Who here remembers the hoopla around steeplechase 20+ years ago? As long as there is windows, there will never be a soft PLC, IMO. Can you imaging a blue screen on an imbedded safety controller in a soft PLC. Osha would have a field day.
 

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