Electronic shaft Simovert & Profibus

Prince

Member
Join Date
Jun 2002
Posts
284
Hi pals

Novice has a new problem, He wants to have 6 motors with speed setpoint and torque limit setpoint. sent to the drive by means of Profibus.
But he needs them fully synchronised, as much as possible.
He knows a bit about Simovert he thinks that there is a multi-axis configuration for Simovert. he think that there is a synchronisation method for simovert through USS but he is not sure if it is possible to have a profibus setpoint on that condition, so he prefers to ask:

1 - Can the Profibus be used simoultanousely with USS ?
2 - Do I need to buy a card for each inverter? or I can just limit it to one for the first inverter then synchronise others? (In this way the first inverter must have individual connection for profibus and USS)
3 - If I want to change the maximum and minimum torque limits by means of PROFIBUS, Can I just change it on the first inverter and be hopeful to parameter the inverter in a way that others get it from the USS?)
4 - Is it possible to have electronic shaft with Profibus or it is just possible by USS ?

I know I know, They are not of the question of the professionals but the novice apologise and thank anybody who helps him about the matter...
 
I don't think you can do ELS through Profibus. I'm pretty sure you need USS to do that. Yes, you can have Profibus and USS simultaneously installed.

You only need one Profibus connection to do this assuming you aren't sending huge amounts of data to all the drives. You can pass some geeneral info down the USS channel. It is probably an easier implementation to use a Profibus drop to each drive, though.

What I don't understand is the use of synchronization and torque limit together. At some point you will probably come out of synchronization because you will hit the torque limit. Is this a machine protection scheme that you don't expect to see except in a fault case or is this part of the general control strategy?

Keith
 
thanks for reply :

The machine works like this, 6 individual rolls turn a pipe around its center line. I should positon the rotation precise, so I must evit the slip of the rolls on pipe body. the mechanics are telling me that the only way to stop slippage is to maintain a specific torque limit. so I would need profibus for command, USS for electronic shaft of the motors but I don't know if I deliver the torque limit to one of the inverters how must I deliver the data to other inverters.
and secondly I never worked with this torque limits I want it just to fix the deccelaration and acceleration times to stop slippage. not for an e-stop or things like that....
I can attach drawings or tell more about it if my english deficiency makes it hard to understand...
 
The coefficient of friction is the key to the acceleration limit.

If you are just rolling the pipe using friction then there is a limit to the acceleration. You don't need to monitor torque. There are many motion controllers that can do this easily.
It would take me less than half an hour to synchronize 6 axes and move the drive with a acceleration limit.

Siemens does have something called Profidrive
http://www.profibus.com/imperia/md/content/pisc/brochures/PROFIdrive-Brochure2001-e.pdf
Actually it is a relatively new Profibus feature.
Check if Profidrive is available.
 
Dear Peter

The acceleration control which you are speaking is exactly what I need. Do you know if Simovert does have a parameter for that?

I checked the link for PROFidrive. I knew that it is a new technology specialy for drives on PROFIBUS do u mean that using this technology I can synchronise 6 axis through PROFIBUS?

will you tell me about your suggested configuration?
 
Prince said:
Dear Peter
The acceleration control which you are speaking is exactly what I need. Do you know if Simovert does have a parameter for that?
It should. Acceleration is a very basic concept. A basic command usually consists of position, speed, acceleration, deceleration. This allows you to control the acceleration and deceleration.

Prince said:
I checked the link for PROFidrive. I knew that it is a new technology specialy for drives on PROFIBUS do u mean that using this technology I can synchronise 6 axis through PROFIBUS?
The main purpose of Profidrive is to provide the ability to synchronize many axes over Profibus DP networks. It is YAIP. Yet another isochronous protocol.

Prince said:
will you tell me about your suggested configuration?

Only because you asked and at the risk of not being to blatant. There are many controllers that can synchronize axes and coordinate them in different ways. The list gets very short when you limit the search to certified Profibus DP controllers that can support 6 axes of servo motor control.
http://www.profibus.com/productguide.html
Search for Controller, Positioning Control, ALL, Yes.
You may be able to find some more uncertified products.
The only one seems to meet your criteria, but I knew that :)
http://www.deltacompsys.com/products/motion/rmc100/

Some videos:

The first part is synchronizing 4 motors. The motors for the belt must be synchronized with the motor opening the doors. If they aren't synchronized the veneer will slide on the belts and not drop in to place properly.
The second part shows super imposed moves. The veneer passes under the photo cells that tell the controller how much one belt move relative to the other so the plywood sheets line up with the laser in the first part of the video. This application was done by Raute Wood of Lahti, Finland and Vancouver, BC. Raute makes veneer equipment.
ftp://ftp.deltacompsys.com/public/m...%20Lay%20Up.wmv

A simple hydraulic synchronizing project similar to what Prince wants to do except this application is hydraulic and linear but the programming techniques would be the same. This application is actually MUCH simpler than the one above. The hydraulics was done by Bud Trinkel who answers hydraulic questions on this forum, Ron's forum and others.
ftp://ftp.deltacompsys.com/public/m...%20PrePaint.wmv

A electronic camming application done by another Canadian customers ( The Canadians use more of our product per capita than any other country INCLUDING the US by a WIDE margin. Go figure). Each log is different. Each log is scanned, optimized and the electronic cams generated, cams downloaded and executed at the rate seen in the video. The cams are geared to the feed chain so if the feed chain slows, the execution of the cam slows too.
ftp://ftp.deltacompsys.com/public/m...%20VSS_0001.wmv
 
My experience of using Siemens Masterdrives in a synchronised motor scheme was to use Profibus as the supervisory control (virtual master speed setpoint, gear ratio adjustment etc.) and then Simolink (a 10MB/sec high speed fibre optic link) to provide the real time synchronisation. Getting the synchronisation working was straightforward.

At the time, I was told that this could also be done using Profibus (DPV2 I believe).
 
Prince,

This is an easy application for Masterdrive MC. You dont need Simolink- Just set up a virtual master in one of the drives and send the data out through profibus using peer to peer. Forget the USS procool. Are you using an S7 processor?? If so, make sure you have DriveES located, this will give you the peer to peer option.
 
Dear JRW

I am using an S7 300 PLC, and I am using 6 master drive MC, I am a novice. So as Simon said I checked SIMOLINK peer-to-peer in documents it seemed to me easy to configure. Telling you the truth the more I work with fiber optics technology the more I like this junk. very very reliable. But I am very very vigilant to know more about what you are suggesting:

1 - I just checked the profibus synchronizatation based on profidrive technology but the profibus card on each inverter will cost me app. the same as simolink (As far as I checked the price list the profibus card will be 250$ as 340$ for Simolink -prices are just estimation- and reading the documents configuring Simolink seemed easier to me...

2- Using USS will have this profit that I will not need to use the extra card but I am not sure about the performance. As the customer needs the motors as synchronised as possible...

3- I did not understand if you are prescribing me to use Profidrive or you are suggesting a new application, can you give me a little note about driveES?

thanks for your help pals
Hope I can help other time
 
Last edited:
Prince,

If you use S7 with DriveES, there is an option to send data from drive to drive (without writing code in the PLC) This only works with Siemens S7. This is done using profibus (CBP2 boards)
If you are already using profibus, this is a good way to go.
This will not work using USS.

If you are definitely keeping the USS (since this is built into the drives), then add the Simolink boards and still use a Virtual Master.

This profibus (peer to peer) using DriveES is a Siemens feature (works on the VC too) that many people are not aware of.

The idea I had for your process is- S73xx-2DP, Masterdrive MC's,
Profibus CBP2's and DriveES integrated with Step7.
Setup a virtual master in one of the Masterdrives and transfer setpoint out to all the drives via profibus peer to peer.

BTW-This setup is done in the Step 7 hardware config.
 

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