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Old October 17th, 2018, 05:21 AM   #1
JesperMP
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Ignition Edge

I find Ignition very interesting, but unfortunately it is price-wise out of my league.
For comparison, I have small machines for which I use WinCC Advanced RT 128 tags + archives for approx 700 €,
and larger plant projects for which I use WinCC Advanced RT 512 tags + archives for approx 1500 €.
(actually I get a discount as well).

Ignition Vision limited plus Siemens driver would come in at 3700 USD.
That would be just about tolerable for the larger plant projects, but impossible for the smaller machines. I dont want to use different solutions for small machines and larger plants. I want one solution to rule them all.

Enter Ignition Edge !
The Ignition Edge Panel version at 1500 USD plus possible bulk discount could be acceptable for us.

But I am disapointed of how little presales info there is.
I am mystified at what Ignition Edge actually is and is not.
Where is the detailed spec-sheet for Ignition Edge ?
Even though 1500 USD sound cheap for Ignition, at that price it should be reasonably full-fledged, with 'limitations'.

I guess I can visualize my machine.
I guess I can press buttons and change parameters.
I guess I can view and acknowledge alarms. Are alarms logged, and can the log be viewed ?
Is there support for multilanguage ? If so, how is this handled ?
There is a 1-week buffer for trending so there must be trends. Are there X-Y plots ?
Can I do my own stuff with scripts ?
Can code developed for 'full' Ignition and Ignition Edge be shared ?
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Old October 17th, 2018, 05:48 AM   #2
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Jesper


Ignition edge hasn't really been pushed by IA, at one time I think it was going to be called Spark


Edge can do everything Ignition with the Vision module can do, you can add drivers or connect to other OPC but there is no Databse connection, only local storage for a week(I believe)
I recall that at the conference this year it was announced that the 500 tag limit was to be removed, I'm not sure if that has happened.

I have a edge project and you can actually runn two clients.


why not ask at the forum https://forum.inductiveautomation.com/

or contact your sales rep, if you dont have one I can do it for you.
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Old October 17th, 2018, 06:05 AM   #3
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Thanks Chris,

I avoid sales reps by principle.

I hoped for just my questions answered, and maybe a link to a more detailed specification or documentation.
Maybe also if someone could chip in with some hands-on experience.

500 tags is OK for the smaller machines.
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Old October 17th, 2018, 06:07 AM   #4
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If my doubts would be more or less cleared, I would jump in and try a demo of Ignition Edge. But only if I am 99% sure that Ignition Edge could be the solution I am looking for.
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Old October 17th, 2018, 06:12 AM   #5
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My understanding is that the historian is very limited with Edge and that is the main reason we have not used it. Many of our projects are single client and under 500 tags, but we need long term trending of lots of those tags.

You can get Ignition for less than list if you register and connect with a sales rep and request a quote for a limited edition with only the bits and pieces you need. You may be able to get it down to the $2000 range. Also, the demo is fully functional. I normally build a project with the demo license, and don't send any money until it's time to commission. Without a license, you have to reset the trial counter every two hours, but everything works until that timer expires.
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Old October 17th, 2018, 06:14 AM   #6
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When I get a moment I'll spin up a VM and run a version to see exactly what’s available.
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Old October 17th, 2018, 06:28 AM   #7
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Taylor View Post
Jesper
When I get a moment I'll spin up a VM and run a version to see exactly what’s available.
Thanks !!
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Old October 17th, 2018, 09:14 AM   #8
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Jesper,



I would call the sales and get hooked up with one at Ignition. They are not your typical sales people and leave you alone until you have a question. I have been using IA since 2006 and not 1 salesperson has called me asking about upcoming project or anything.


You can download the demo without putting your name on the website as well.



I am not sure about the tag limitation we used a edge for a customer last year and at that point it still had the tag limitation.



Historian is a week for trending - no SQL interaction as well. The historian just stores values in a file and not SQL like Ignition Full does.


The 'Edge' is supposed to be on smaller machines or sites and connect to a larger Ignition package with Historian and SQL then you can use that as a historian. So you could buy the Historian Module and put that on a central server and have all your edge machines point to it for longer datalogging, and that would be cheaper than buying a bunch of vision modules for all your machines.


They also have 'Limited' Vison module for like 1 client that is cheaper than the pricing on the website.

Last edited by DBLD99; October 17th, 2018 at 09:17 AM.
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Old October 17th, 2018, 09:50 AM   #9
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Quote:
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Jesper,



I would call the sales and get hooked up with one at Ignition. They are not your typical sales people and leave you alone until you have a question. I have been using IA since 2006 and not 1 salesperson has called me asking about upcoming project or anything.


You can download the demo without putting your name on the website as well.



I am not sure about the tag limitation we used a edge for a customer last year and at that point it still had the tag limitation.



Historian is a week for trending - no SQL interaction as well. The historian just stores values in a file and not SQL like Ignition Full does.


The 'Edge' is supposed to be on smaller machines or sites and connect to a larger Ignition package with Historian and SQL then you can use that as a historian. So you could buy the Historian Module and put that on a central server and have all your edge machines point to it for longer datalogging, and that would be cheaper than buying a bunch of vision modules for all your machines.


They also have 'Limited' Vison module for like 1 client that is cheaper than the pricing on the website.
I agree with all of that. I get an occasional email from my sales rep, like once a quarter, and he is not pushy at all, only offers help. When we have talked on the phone, they are very professional, understanding and helpful.
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Old October 17th, 2018, 12:58 PM   #10
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Originally Posted by JesperMP View Post
Thanks Chris,

I avoid sales reps by principle.

I hoped for just my questions answered, and maybe a link to a more detailed specification or documentation.
Maybe also if someone could chip in with some hands-on experience.

500 tags is OK for the smaller machines.

I haven't tried edge, but I have to say that my Ignition Sales Person is great at answering questions, providing other options then I had thought of, and never ever bothers me with annoying phone calls.
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Old October 17th, 2018, 07:45 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JesperMP View Post
I hoped for just my questions answered, and maybe a link to a more detailed specification or documentation.
Maybe also if someone could chip in with some hands-on experience.

500 tags is OK for the smaller machines.
500 tag limit is removed in v7.9.9, here is a link to the manual

IMHO Edge is a compliment to a facility that runs the full version of Ignition as well. We have dismissed it due to the tag limitation, but now that it has been removed it might be worth reconsidering. TBD
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Old October 18th, 2018, 04:13 AM   #12
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Thanks Paully.

If we supply only individual machines, we would only use Ignition Edge Panel.
If we supply a complete plant, we would use a full Ignition, maybe with Edge Panel for the machines.

What does this mean:
Quote:
All Gateway level scripting is disabled including Gateway Event Scripts and Tag Event scripts. This does not affect project or client scoped scripts.
I am imagining that I can do some scripting triggered by tag events. Will that be possible ?
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Old October 18th, 2018, 04:15 AM   #13
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Anyone knows about these topics ?
  • Is there support for multilanguage ? If so, how is this handled ?
  • Are there X-Y plots ?
  • Can I do my own stuff with scripts ?
  • Can code developed for 'full' Ignition and Ignition Edge be shared ?
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Old October 18th, 2018, 05:11 AM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JesperMP View Post
Anyone knows about these topics ?
  • Is there support for multilanguage ? If so, how is this handled ?
Ignition has a "Translation Manager" built into the system at the Gateway level, so it is available to all projects. The functionality is a simple table, with a "Key", and then whatever languages you choose. You enter a word or phrase as the Key in your native language, and then enter in whatever translations you like for as many other languages as you like. A client can be started directly with any defined language, and can switch on the fly from a drop down.


Quote:

  • Are there X-Y plots ?
Yes, several chart types are provided with the base system, the plain 'Chart' supports XY functionality. For XY charts, I find it is best to actually use the database functions to build my dataset, and just bind it to the chart, but there are other ways. There are also developers out there that have created other drop in charting packages that can be extremely advanced, but I haven't really used any yet as the built-ins suffice for my needs.


Quote:

  • Can I do my own stuff with scripts ?
Honestly, if you can dream it, you can do it. The scripting is very powerful, and not all that complicated if you have any kind of programming background, especially in java/python. Almost anything can have scripts attached, from objects on the displays, tags on the local client level, tags on the Gateway level, timer events, alarm events, even data bindings.


Quote:

  • Can code developed for 'full' Ignition and Ignition Edge be shared ?
Here, I have to say the answer is yes, as long as the code is client only. Edge doesn't have a full blown Gateway, so Gateway wide functionality is missing. That would restrict the use of Gateway level startup/shutdown, timer, tag change, and message scripts. Those scripts, as well as a shutdown-intercept and menubar handler script are all still valid and usable on the client side for Edge. One of the Gateway level scripts that I put in here updates the time and date of every PLC (and through them, every PowerFlex drive) in the plant on a daily basis. That has helped a lot in keeping alarm messages from being stupidly timestamped. The same script should be able to run on a client as well, there is nothing Gateway specific, and I could run the same scripts on Edge.


One thing about Edge that is a drawback, aside from no database access, is that the OPC-UA Server is is ONLY a client; it cannot take info from field devices and source it to other OPC clients, but that is probably not a big restriction for most applications.
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Old October 18th, 2018, 05:20 AM   #15
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Quote:
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I am imagining that I can do some scripting triggered by tag events. Will that be possible ?

Yes. "Tag Change" event scrips can be fired off by the client, and so will run on Edge. The "Tag Change" event scripts can fire off based on a change in the tag value, its OPC Quality, or its timestamp.


There are also individual scripting options that can be applied to any individual tag in the tag definition. Those won't fire on timestamp changes, but they do add "Alarm Active", "Alarm Cleared", and "Alarm Acknowledged" events to fire off the associated script.


-----


Other scripting that I find extremely helpful is that built into the window/display system itself. You can base scripts on windows opening, closing the internal frame opening, activating, deactivating, closing, and close. I use those extensively to locate specific popups in specific places on the client window when opened. I use the 'internalFrameDeactivated' handler a lot for things like MOP popup windows... As long as the popup has focus, and is being used, it stays visible. Touch anywhere outside of its frame though, and it shuts itself down.
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