Looking for advice

cyoung120

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Jul 2013
Location
OH
Posts
92
Hi guys.
Long time reader, first time posting here. I guess I should give a little background before my question(s). I have been working as an industrial electrician for the past 13 years in various settings. I recently graduated from college with an associates in Electrical Engineering Technology. About four weeks ago I was hired by a local system integrator.
My first project is for a brand new waste water facility for a fairly large city here in Pennsylvania.
The project consists of :

  1. Redundant SCADA servers as well as 2 workstations
  2. Historian server (need to develop 10 custom printable reports)
  3. Three HMI touch screens
  4. PV Plus
  5. 2 CLX processors with 17 slot rack that contain a mix of analog and digital 32 point I/O cards
  6. 1 CLX processor with 13 slot rack also with a mix of analog and digital 32 point I/O cards
  7. 1 CLX processor with 7 slot rack with a mix of analog and digital I/O
This is my first "real" PLC project. Everything I have done before has been on various trainers which pretty much consisted of making and air cylinder cycle and the simulated garage door.

I also have never been in a waste water facility so I have no idea how it is supposed to work so I am unable to fall back on "real world" experience. Everything I have done so far has been based on a stack of P&ID's.

So far I got the redundant servers set up, some screens done and some of the alarm code done. I am to the point now where I need to get MSG commands to work between all 4 processors which I have had zero luck with.

Another part that that I am stuck on is a pump sequence. Lead, Lag 1, Lag 2, Stand-by, and Emergency. The assignments of the pumps needs to change at 10 AM every morning. I have no idea how to even approach this.

The software FAT (Factory Acceptance Testing) is scheduled in a couple of weeks.

And to top it all off, there are several OEM that are providing equipment that I am responsible to monitor on the SCADA. I have not received a list of tags or anything from them.

I was wondering if any of you more experienced programmers could offer some guidance on how to proceed with my project. I have been reading online about efficient programming and avoiding spaghetti code. Any tips, tricks, or advice would be greatly appreciated.
 
Man you just jumped into the deep end of the pool!

First thing is first. You need to identify all components of this system, what I/O you have coming to and from them, and how they must function. Write that out then come back for more.
 
I'm sputtering with disbelief that your employer might actually think this is a reasonable amount of time and manpower for this system. You're undermanned and overscheduled by a factor of 4 at least.

Maybe you have other resources on this... are you part of a larger team ?

You can get some advice on pump scheduling logic and intercontroller communications and I'd be glad to contribute to those. But let's not pretend that this is a two-week project.

Edit: Because you write in clear English, I can be concise: you're in over your head. This doesn't mean you shouldn't try, it just means you shouldn't expect to succeed before the deadline. Don't get killed on the jobsite or the highway because you put in a week of all-nighters trying to get programs finished. You have a chance of learning a great deal and building a functional system, but not in two weeks.
 
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I typically don't like to pile on but in this case you need to hear from as many here as possible that you have a mountain of work ahead of you. This sounds like a minimum month long project by a team that knows all things PLC, HMI, and how the process is to work.

You need to raise the red flag now, not the day before the city expects everything to be up and running.

Just my honest opinion.
 
Hi guys.
Long time reader, first time posting here.

Well first off, welcome!

Sorry to get ugly right away, I hate to say it, but I agree with everyone else. However, this whole situation just seems off entirely.

I recently graduated from college with an associates in Electrical Engineering Technology. About four weeks ago I was hired by a local system integrator.

Good to be hired by an SI, can learn a lot but the learning curve can be steep at times. BUT, as an SI they should have a set process for handling projects, not simply just dumping it to a new guy w/no experience.

I presume you have standard software to work with? Standard methods of design and project management to work with? Is anyone working with you? Did the SI get you up-to-speed on their methods?

My first project is for a brand new waste water facility for a fairly large city here in Pennsylvania.
The project consists of :

  1. Redundant SCADA servers as well as 2 workstations
  2. Historian server (need to develop 10 custom printable reports)
  3. Three HMI touch screens
  4. PV Plus
  5. 2 CLX processors with 17 slot rack that contain a mix of analog and digital 32 point I/O cards
  6. 1 CLX processor with 13 slot rack also with a mix of analog and digital 32 point I/O cards
  7. 1 CLX processor with 7 slot rack with a mix of analog and digital I/O

How many hours did the SI quote to complete this project? What was the project schedule?

This is my first "real" PLC project. Everything I have done before has been on various trainers which pretty much consisted of making and air cylinder cycle and the simulated garage door.

Your employer knows this correct? I can't believe a reputable SI would ever put a new engineer with no experience in project work in a situation like this. Something smells funny.

Please don't take this as an insult, but did you over-sell yourself in your interview?

I also have never been in a waste water facility so I have no idea how it is supposed to work so I am unable to fall back on "real world" experience. Everything I have done so far has been based on a stack of P&ID's.

P&IDs are a good starting point, have you been provided any customer specifications? Functional Design Specifications? Process sequence diagrams/flow charts?

So far I got the redundant servers set up, some screens done and some of the alarm code done. I am to the point now where I need to get MSG commands to work between all 4 processors which I have had zero luck with.

So what have you done before this? What percentage of the project is complete? To me it sounds like 10%. Who is monitoring the process of this project? Someone has to be looking at the MONEY and labor hours spent on this project so far.

Have you asked your peers for help? MSG commands aren't complex, if you are working for an SI they should be able to teach you this!

Another part that that I am stuck on is a pump sequence. Lead, Lag 1, Lag 2, Stand-by, and Emergency. The assignments of the pumps needs to change at 10 AM every morning. I have no idea how to even approach this.

Sounds like this is the least of your problems. But again, have you consulted your peers?

The software FAT (Factory Acceptance Testing) is scheduled in a couple of weeks.

Based on what you have said, you need to have a hard conversation with your boss and he needs to pull an "all-hands-on-deck" alarm ASAP and probably discuss delaying the FAT and subsequent commissioning. You won't make the deadline, I mean you will lose a week or two due to the holidays alone.

It's not just about the programming, you have to some formal testing prior to the FAT too, so figure 2 weeks prior to FAT start your internal testing. So that leaves you 2 weeks to finish the programming.

Seriously, there is too much risk to put you in this position, I'm at a loss, this situation is just hard to believe. I feel like there large gaps to this story. Granted you can't explain the entire story easily in a single post.

And to top it all off, there are several OEM that are providing equipment that I am responsible to monitor on the SCADA. I have not received a list of tags or anything from them.

Have you pushed for the information from them? Have you elevated your concerns? Have you picked up the phone?

I was wondering if any of you more experienced programmers could offer some guidance on how to proceed with my project. I have been reading online about efficient programming and avoiding spaghetti code. Any tips, tricks, or advice would be greatly appreciated.

Again, something just is off on this whole story. If this is the situation you are truly in you have my sympathy. You have been setup to fail. I cannot stand it when people are setup to fail and not succeed. It's completely irresponsible of any employer to do this, especially a SI! How much money is at stake with this project, how much RISK and liability!?!?

Between the project scope, the project schedule....if you were hired 4 weeks ago, and FAT is in 4 weeks, you're saying the project schedule was 8 weeks as you have no mention of anyone else working on the project or handing it over to you. The SI knew about this project and it's scope long before they hired you. They sold the project right? It does not make any logical sense at all for them to hire you and drop this project on you with no team, no mentor no lead engineer. I cannot believe they would make you a lead on a project this large given your experience.

You don't put green engineers in charge of any project over $50K to start with!!

I just re-read your project scope and you have to setup historian and 10 custom reports yet! No way anyone should have thought you could come-on board and knock this out. Sorry if I am insulting you, I don't mean to it's the reality of the situation.

I'm in awe that this is happening.
 
Thanks for the replies. I see the general consensuses is that I am in way over my head. There is no one that realizes this more than myself.

I will answer some of Paully's5.0 questions so maybe that will help you to understand my situation.

I presume you have standard software to work with? Standard methods of design and project management to work with? Is anyone working with you? Did the SI get you up-to-speed on their methods?

Yes I have what I would consider standard software. RSLogix 5000 v20, SE Enterprise and Client v7.

How many hours did the SI quote to complete this project? What was the project schedule?

I have no idea how many hours were quoted for project or what the schedule is. I do know that FAT testing is being pushed back due to other contractors being behind schedule.

Your employer knows this correct? I can't believe a reputable SI would ever put a new engineer with no experience in project work in a situation like this. Something smells funny.

Please don't take this as an insult, but did you over-sell yourself in your interview?

My skills and limitations were made clear. If anything I undersold myself.

P&IDs are a good starting point, have you been provided any customer specifications? Functional Design Specifications? Process sequence diagrams/flow charts?

Yes I was provided with loop descriptions that describe the sequence. No flow charts, however, I was planning on trying to develop my own flow charts based on the loop descriptions.

So what have you done before this? What percentage of the project is complete? To me it sounds like 10%. Who is monitoring the process of this project? Someone has to be looking at the MONEY and labor hours spent on this project so far.

Have you asked your peers for help? MSG commands aren't complex, if you are working for an SI they should be able to teach you this!

I have no way of judging what percentage is done, having never done anything like this before I have nothing to compare to. I would assume someone is watching. I know I would be if I was in charge.
As far as the MSG commands go, I agree they probably aren’t that complicated for someone who has been programming for a while but for whatever reason, I can't get mine to work.

I have been working with a colleague who has been programming for a while. I have been able to pick their brain and they have led me in the right direction several times. I will have access to that colleague for about another week before they leave.

Have you pushed for the information from them? Have you elevated your concerns? Have you picked up the phone?

I have not pushed for information or picked up the phone. I have no one to blame but myself on that one.

I hope that these replies shed some light on the situation I am in.
This is not my employers first waste water project so I am sure they understood the scoop of it. There are several competent programmers that are employed at firm who would be able to accomplish the project with no sweat. I am just unsure if I am going to be paired with one in the upcoming weeks to "hold my hand" and see the completion of the project.
 
cyoung120 -

Again, you're in an unfortunate situation. All you can do is your best at this point, and if your best isn't good enough to get the project done it is certainly not on your shoulders.

Thanks for the feedback, and I'll give you a quick summary of how the process should work:

1 - Sales, the land the project. The Sale price should be broken down to the number of hours estimated, cost of any hardware, control panel building, installation, commissioning...etc.

2 - You would then have a kick-off or hand-over meeting with sales, they tell you a summary of the project, key points (cost, timeline, key people, any third parties...). They should turn over P&IDs, Customer specs, process descriptions (if available).

3 - A project manager/lead engineer builds some type of project schedule to establish a time frame of all the tasks required to complete the project. If Sales did a good job at estimating everyone is happy.

4 - Project manager/lead engineer assigns tasks among the team. Small projects may have only 1 person, large could have very many. Tasks could be broken down as:
- Electrical Work
- HMI SCADA Work
- Historian/Reporting Work
- PLC Coding
.
.
.
-etc.

So as tasks are checked off, you should have an idea of how much work is left, versus the remaining schedule versus the remaining project hours. Then management knows if they will make money or lose money based on completion of each task, or estimated time to complete each task.

Project managers/lead engineers need to track actual costs of the project and report that to management. Plus, they have to be sure they are on budget.

5. So all the team members have their tasks, and you go to work.

At this point, you should turn your organizations standards to complete the task. So when I asked about the software you will use to develop your code, it was about your organizations internal software/logic standards. Not the platform you needed to work on. Sorry for that confusion.

Your organization should already have base code to:
- Control Devices (pumps, motors, valves, lights, push buttons)
- handle sequencing
- define program tags and structures (programs, subroutines)
- SCADA objects (valves, motors..etc), device pop-up windows, overall screen design guidelines
.
.
.
- Get where I am going with it?

So, hopefully you didn't start from scratch. If your company has done waste water before, I would assume you started this project from a previous project?

6 - As the project moves along, communications should be occurring to identify risks, and plan ways to mitigate risk. Prevent surprises. Your missing information from the other contractors would be raised as a concern here.

At this point for your project, the project schedule needs to be identified, and someone needs to determine just how much time you will need to complete the project. Is it 2 weeks or 2 months? It's all part of understanding the task list, how many are complete and how many are not. The first 80% of project development work takes 20% of the project timeline, the last 20% of a project development work takes 80% of the project timeline! Devil is in the details!

7 - As everyone gets the tasks complete, your organization should have standard documents which outline your test procedures (if they don't you should come up with your own). You would adapt these documents to your project, and when you feel everything is ready, you would execute those documents. Once you complete your internal test, and make any corrections you can have some confidence that when your customer arrives for FAT you won't embarrass yourself or the company. Warm-fuzzy, go drink beer.

8 - FAT feedback is considered, changes made and off to commissioning the project you go.

9 - Project is commissioned, customer is happy, Warm-fuzzy go drink drink beer.

10 - Let the accountants worry about getting payment from the customer.

So, that doesn't help you right now but at least gives you a clue as how the process should work.
 
To actually help you out, you need to provide some more specifics on the problem you are currently trying to solve.

So, if you want to get the messaging thing sorted out, tell use the details of what you are trying to accomplish, show us the work you have done so far (screen shot and attach) or post the code if you are allowed too. Maybe don't post the entire project, just the logic you are having problems with now, keeps it generic.

We can then do what we can to help you once we are up to speed.

This forum is excellent at supporting it's members, just keep in mind that the effort someone puts into a response will only be as much effort you put in.
 
Paully's5.0
Thank you for the detailed response on how the whole process works. You are correct about not starting with a blank screen. I was given programs from other projects that I was able to duplicate. I would say that the majority of what I have done so far has been cut and pasted from other projects. Which in turn has its own downfalls, for example, I spent most of yesterday afternoon correcting a mistake I made on an Alarm routine.

I would assume that someone is communicating in order to avoid mistakes and risks, however, I am out of the loop. I am sure I don't need to tell you what happens when you assume.......

As far as the FAT goes, I have no idea what it even is. Earlier this week is the first time I even heard the term. On Monday I will ask if there is some form of internal document that is used before the actual testing. I do not want to look like and idiot when it is time to do the testing.

Before I started this job, I felt that I had had a pretty good handle on PLC and programming. Boy was I ever wrong. I have done so much and learned so much in the past four weeks it blows my mind.

Presently, I can not post any screen shots as to what I am trying to accomplish, however, next week as I encounter problems I will turn to this forum for help and guidance. I am not looking for everyone here to do project for me, just to point me in right direction so that I am not wasting valuable time.

Once again, Thank You all for your posts.....
 
The first thing you need to do is get close to the plant operators. They will be very happy to tell you what they are looking for in screens, trends, alarms, etc. They will be pleased that you want their opinions, since that doesn't happen often enough. They will also be happy to tell you how the process works. And, if the operators are on your side they will cut you a lot of slack on schedules and so on. If they aren't on your side you will fail, period.

Second, you need to go to the general contractor and tell him you haven't gotten the info needed from the equipment manufacturers. Give him a spreadsheet formatted with the data you need from each. If the contract documents (plans and specs) don't identify the data then the operators can tell you what they want. The spreadsheet should have columns for address, tag number, data format (real, integer, bit etc.) units of measure, description, etc. Tell them they need to have all data in contiguous blocks - that will simplify your messaging. This will buy you at least a month. The general contractor has leverage with the suppliers, because he holds their retainage. The owner has leverage with the general contractor because he holds the contractor's retainage.

Go over the contract documents thoroughly. The quality varies tremendously, with some engineers providing very detailed loop descriptions etc. and other engineers not providing much of anything. Filter the contract document info through the operators - they know what they need better than the engineer in most cases.

Get close to the local A-B distributor. A-B generally has very tough requirements for their distributors technical support capability, and most are pretty good. See if you can get him on site to help you with the messaging. Communications are always a PITA and the distributor should be able and willing to help a potential long term customer. Your boss should have the right contact available for you.

Finally, don't get overwhelmed, don't rush, don't shortcut to make schedule. Just put one foot in front of the other and march on down the road. Be very honest about difficulties but also be very positive about your ability to solve them. It can be done, it will be done, and it is better late than wrong.

Edit: Oops - I just remembered that Pennsylvania has multiple prime contractors on most municipal projects. If that is the case with yours then the general may not have the leverage with OEMs. Go to the owner and the consulting engineer instead. Again, your boss should be able to tell you what the structure is on your project - who is subbed to whom and so on.
 
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Just a 2c, but don't even bother with msg instructions, use produce/consume tags.

You will need to add each PLC to each PLC in the IO tree.
Create a UDT of x Reals & x DINT's, then create the same in each PLC, configured to be produced/consumed from the appropriate source.
I typically use 2 of the DINT elements as Boolean flags between PLC's

Then you have per defined comms between all PLC's that you can just copy the required info to/from.
IMO, this is the most efficient solution.
 
Hi this is Malik, facing issue with versaView 1200 windows was not booting, then i recover the partition by using recovery CD. now windows xp is recovered but i am unable to run find application software. I got OIU files i dont know how to use with AP software.
 
As was said before you really jumped in the deep end on this one.
a project of this size would usually require at least 3 programmers or more working as a teen. if your employer only has you for this project then he has greatly over rated his ability
i am not saying that you cant handle this project but it is not a beginners project it would be a good project to learn from, if the lead person has a high level of experience and is willing to teach you.
as for helping you get started planning this I really don't think anybody can do that without a lot more details then you have here
i have to wonder how many projects like this you employer has done in the past
you are looking at at least a year's work for one person.
i wish you well
 

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