Newcomers and learners are reticent to post

Goody said:

I know this has been debated before about newbies, students and learners wanting their homework, projects etc doing for them. And, I know all the arguments for and against. But I have to say that I know there would be far more posts on everyday programming if the attitudes of some were lessened somewhat.

I know for a fact that some learners are frightened to post for fear of being ridiculed and not even then, getting an answer.


Not if they:
1. Read the New Here.
2. Read the tutorial
3. Show they have made an effort.
4. Check previous posts here and on other sites for the answer to the same question.


An example would be recently he wanted to understand index registers.(I would say to someone new, this is a tough subject)
For a long while the penny would not drop. I eventually told him to leave it for a while until he was more experienced.
But he continued working hard until he got it. He then posted me the code and I knew for certain he had got it.

Click to expand...

Good for him, but the concept is basic. How would one do array indexing without index registers or pointers? Think about it. The question I ask myself is how would I access data in an array. understanding the goal makes understanding the means much easier.
Indirect and index addressing is basic.


Topics like this would be excellent for all if they were posted on this site. I am sure there are many more like him that need to know something but they just watch all the posts hoping that their subject is broached and answered by others.
[/QUOTE]
Try #4. Search the net for "PLC indirect addressing" there is a lot of information there for many different PLCs.


So all you students, newbies learners or whatever your interest. Please do not be afraid to post.
Try to ignore the inevitable flak and post your basic questions. I for one will endeavour to answer what I can.
[/QUOTE]

I won't bite but I doubt a student can do the 4 above things and still have a question at the homework level. Most can't get by #1.


This site is leaning towards high end questions and answers but every single one of us were baffled in the beginning. [/QUOTE]

The question are not leaning towards the high end. Most are expressing a need for knowledge for real workd applications. I am in a continual state of baffled. If you ever feel you are not baffled you had better ask why. What will you think of this site 10 years from now? Can you imagine the traffic light problem being asked and answered 1000 times because each thinks he is asking it for the first time and there will be those that think they are answering the question for the first time?

Now think about this. Which student do you want working for you? The student that figured out his homework problem on his own, I am sure most do, or the student that wants us to do his homework for him?
Read, research, and trying different techniques is how many of us learned. In the beginning there was not an internet.

There are questions that makes me want to flame. They are the
1. Tell me everything about PLCs questions. As if I have time.
2. Questions where one must ask another 20 questions to provide an answer. Again I don't have the time.

These questions show a lack of respect to those that may take the time to answer. In these cases the "ignore rule" applies.

Indirect and index addressing is basic.

Click to expand...

I have taught over 400 students basic programming and I assure you indirect and index addressing is an advanced topic.

There are questions that makes me want to flame. They are the
1. Tell me everything about PLCs questions. As if I have time.
2. Questions where one must ask another 20 questions to provide an answer. Again I don't have the time.

These questions show a lack of respect to those that may take the time to answer. In these cases the "ignore rule" applies .

Click to expand...

My advice is to do simply that. Ignore them. If your patience is wearing thin with this type of inquiry, don't bother to reply.

The answers to this on-going debate are not black-and-white. This forum cannot be all things to all programmers. I, too, am fed up with the obvious student inquires, but have watched the high count posters snuff the flame out of many legitimate beginners who were immediately blown off as students.

This site does need a beginner's forum. The test forum could be converted and I suggest that we assign several mentors who are accustomed to nurturing beginners. I am not suggesting that we coddle the students at all, but there are bona fide beginners out there that need a little guidance and a little respect.

I rest.....

Amen.

I said to myself, Steve, stay away from this one, but...

I, too, am fed up with the obvious student inquires, but have watched the high count posters snuff the flame out of many legitimate beginners who were immediately blown off as students.

Click to expand...

And how are you able to to differentiate between the 'legitimate beginners' and the lazy students?

This site does need a beginner's forum. The test forum could be converted and I suggest that we assign several mentors who are accustomed to nurturing beginners. I am not suggesting that we coddle the students at all, but there are bona fide beginners out there that need a little guidance and a little respect.

Click to expand...

This site needs a beginner's forum like Terry Woods needs more keepers! There already is a beginner's area. It's cleverly disguised as the tutorial section. The answers to a high percentage of the newbie questions can be found there.

If a person is too timid to post here for fear of ridicule, whose problem is that? You can always post under an assumed name.

The sarcastic responses are a Darwinian method of weeding out the sincere questions from the homework/test questions. Those who are really looking for an answer will follow up with additional information to put their original question into some sort of context. The lazy students whose only motivation is a higher grade will disappear, never to be heard from again, except that somebody will invoke their names in some drivel about how heartless we are.

Nobody is forcing anyone else to read any of the responses. If you personally feel that I, or anyone else, has a tendency to be unduly harsh, you are free to ignore my contributions. I won't know, and if I knew, I wouldn't care.

Dial 1001 0001 0001!

Guys,
I think there is a lot of thin skin in here. I too believe that questions must be asked in proper context with proper information on the subject. There is also a professional way to handle things. How many times has a customer asked a question that he thought was legitimate, but not knowing the nature of the beast we have laughed to ourselves. I think that the proper way to reply to vague questions is to not answer, not turn this into "Jerry Springer PLC"!

Typo!

I meant to type "....that we thought...."<<<<<<<quickly trying to avoid the persecution of the forum!!!!!!!

Jay said...
I have taught over 400 students basic programming and I assure you indirect and index addressing is an advanced topic.


Index Addressing:

Version-1:
Here are four pieces of mail; A, B, C and D.
Take the first piece of mail (A) and deliver it to House-a.
Take the next three pieces (B, C and D), and deliver them to the next three houses (b, c and d), respectively.
(A -> a, B -> b, C -> c, and D -> d)

a = a + 0
b = a + 1
c = a + 2
d = a + 3


Version-2:
Here is a piece of mail for House-c.
I forgot the address of House-c, but I know it's two doors down from House-a.
Go to House-a.
Then, go down two doors and deliver this mail to House-c.

c = a + 2



Indirect Addressing:

Version-1:
Here is a piece of mail for Mrs. Jones.
I can't remember her address to save my life! She moves around a lot!
But, I do know that Mrs. Smith knows Mrs. Jones' address.
So, go to Mrs. Smith's house and get the address from her, then deliver this mail to Mrs. Jones.


Version-2:
Here is a piece of mail.
I have no idea at all whom it is for, but the envelope says that Mrs. Smith does know! (Jeez! What a busy-body!)
So, go to Mrs. Smith's house and get the address from her, then stick this mail wherever she tells you to.


These are just a few of the basic ways to use Indexing and Indirect Addressing. There certainly are many other games you can play using Indexing and Indirect Addressing. Things get interesting when you add math functions.

As Peter said, those concepts are basic. Whether a student sees those concepts as being "basic" or "advanced" depends on the student's perception of the concept. And, of course, that perception is totally dependent upon the presentation made by the instructor.

There is no way for an instructor to make any basic concept seem basic if the instructor does not know the concept himself.

If an instructor understands these concepts, then the instructor knows that these are indeed basic concepts.

Anyone that sees any math function as being basic has to see that Addressing Handling is basic. In fact, Address Handling is more basic than many of those math functions (if not all of those functions)! After all, Address Handling is introduced at the very first level of PLC Programming. That is, Input Address vs. Output Address vs. Timer Current Value Address vs. V-Mem Address vs....etc, etc, etc... One of the most, if not the most, basic aspects of computer programming is Adressing. All Computer programming is Address dependent!

Whether it is Indexing or Indirect Addressing, they are as basic as any math function, or any other data handling function, for that matter.

The hard part about Indexing and Indirect Address is to identify clear and obvious uses for them. I've used them many times, and yet, I have a hard time coming up with a good example of where to use them. Sometimes, one or the other simply fills the bill.

Peter uses these particular concept-tools all the time in his applications. I have no doubt that he could shed some light on some of his uses of these basic tools.

It is not the case that these aren't valuable and powerful tools just because I can't point to an obvious use them. There are plenty of math functions and data handling functions whose use is not obvious at the git-go. But knowing that they exist and knowing how to use them pays off in spades when you need them!

What'a ya say Jay? $1.50 by now ??? I figure, if anyone got $1.50 out of it, my time is worth it! And I figure some got much more than that out of it!

Other comments...

WilWil67 said...
Guys, I think there is a lot of thin skin in here.

I've been sayin' that for at least four years! I really think this is a societal problem. That is, Darwinian Laws (or, at least, theories) are not working! Our society is moving more and more towards accommodating the lowest common denominator, which of course, drags us all to that LOWER level!

Steve Bailey said...
This site needs a beginner's forum like Terry Woods needs more keepers!

PLEASE! NO MORE KEEPERS!!! I've got lumps enough!

What might be a newcomer’s perception be of a website entitled PLCS.NET.
My guess, This site must have something to do with plc’s. – I am learning PLC’s at the moment maybe this site will be of some help.

What might be a seasoned programmer’s perception of this site; ah, a site dedicated to plc’s, excellent, maybe I can learn more and at the same time, I might be able to pass on some of my knowledge.

In my experience plc programmers do not go around in gangs. They are usually nomadic and singular. When they are commissioning or repairing a machine, others are made to do their bidding while they sit at the panel with a posh laptop joined to the brain of the machine by an umbilical cord.
This man is usually one of the top dogs and is quite used to being feted and obeyed.

This perception by others of the man with the shirt & tie, the laptop and the knowledge influences his own perception of himself.
A star always likes to believe what the sycophants are saying to him.

And so this man, that truly believes he should be carried to and from the job in a sedan chair by the boiler-suited minions enters these hallowed halls.

Sat on his computer throne, royal scepter in hand, he casts aside his ermine edged cloak, straightens his bejeweled crown and surveys the questions on plcs.net.

The audible tut tutting’s are heard by his surfs as he reads the simple questions pertaining to index registers and indirect addressing.
His head regularly shakes from side to side at the banality of the questions.
The concept of how ordinary people do not understand these basic things is beyond him.
He even says aloud rhetorically,” I told them about Mrs Jones taking a letter to Mr Smith and Mr Smith lived 3 doors down from uncle Fester, what more do they want.”
He is much saddened by this state and feels a little isolated.

At this point, a subordinate appears at his side. “ Sire, the royal car will not start, we hoped your Excellency would look under the bonnet (hood) and, as usual, effect one of your brilliant diagnosis as to the trouble”

“The car, what, wont start, oh dear. To be honest, I tried once to repair the royal car but I didn’t know how.
I asked a mechanic at the garage, what makes a car go.
He laughed in my face. I am never going to ask again. I felt degraded and useless. He should have been more sympathetic to me, It was obvious I knew very little and didn’t quite know how to phrase the question.
At this, his fingers hover above the keyboard ready to write. He says to himself in a menacing voice“ who shall suffer today”

When they are commissioning or repairing a machine, others are made to do their bidding while they sit at the panel with a posh laptop joined to the brain of the machine by an umbilical cord.

Click to expand...

Well frig.... how come im getting the jack shaft then? I want some peon's to go around and do my bidding while I push buttons!!

"Can you check the wiring on module 2... while you're at it, my car is a bit dirty, can you wash it"

Regards,

-Steve

Like Steve (Bailey - there are getting to be way too many 'Steve's here. Even Goody is a 'Steve'), I wanted to stay away from this thread. I've got to work more on the self-control stuff.

Like LighteningUK (another 'Steve'!) said, we've said all this before. We'll say it all again.

We're about 4 weeks from the annual "differentiate between 0-10V, 4-20ma, digital discrete, 9- 10- 12 - bit analogue" question (or is this the year they alternate with "differentiate between PLC, microcontroller, DCS" question - I forget.

While these students are in the same category of students who buy papers off the internet, someone inevitably will help them. Someone always does.
Usually a newbie who is reluctant to post a question, but thinks "Hey - here's one that I can answer." Often 3 weeks after the original post (which means that the homework is already turned in). And the newbie will get yelled at for helping the student cheat. And if he's got some backbone, he'll fire back that we're too mean to students. "We were all students once". And we'll go through this soul-searching again.

And again.

And again.

I've seen Terry and Ron (Doran) fight before, and about the same topic. I'm sure to see it again. (Something to reflect on: The difference between self-confidence/egostism and arrogance. The former is positive (but, like humor, can be misunderstood by the audience). The latter just rubs people the wrong way.)

We'll see students who ask for the code to be emailed to them, and we'll say "What have you done?" "Give us more details". And we'll be met with silence (from the poster), while the thread spins off into unexpected tangents (25% chance of it being an AB-bashing tangent).

I've been very lucky in the last year that I've had a couple of genuine students posting questions, who reply with questions to my answers, or answers to my questions. It's experiences like those, as well as what I continue to learn (remembering Peter's & my discussions about PIDs and low-pass filters) that keep me comming back.

I wish more posters would explain what they've done so far. A recent thread by Roger Pate shows how it would help.

But I understand the reluctance. What they have so far doesn't work. They are unsure enough of their own abilities to not be sure if they are even on the right track. So they ask for help without showing their work first. It's a pity, but it's human nature.

But it doesn't help when it comes to helping them.

I still favor a FAQ forum, with a list of questions "sticky'-ed to the top, each question answered as a seperate thread in the forum, as a combination of explanation and links to previous threads. Yes, an intrepid student can get many of the same posts by using a search, but like don fykes in a recent thread, the students don't always know what the key word should be.

We can even have a FAQ: "Are the PLCs.net regular too hard on students/newbies", with links to this thread. Perhaps some reluctant poster will read this, and know that the answer, as always, is:

IT DEPENDS!


Opinions, Phil?

<hr>
Aside to Will (and others): The EDIT button on your thread allows you to change your post, even delete it, for up to 1 hour after you've posted/last updated. If you meant to say something (or regretted saying something), or saw a typo, you can fix it. This is also a useful feature for the PRACTICE POSTING HERE forum, that you can delete an HTML test entirely.

Thank You.

Thanks for the info. I guess I have not taken the proper time to check all the functionalities of the site.

I just got back from an excursion to the "Garden State", and I can't pass this thread up. A few opinions, wrapped around some old chestnuts:

"How do you know what you don't know?" Obviously, you can't! However, it is fairly obvious in many cases that the individual is simply copying the homework question, and hasn't even bothered to look at the text. After all, the answer to the traffic light question is in Appendix H of the A-B SLC-500 Reference Manual! So, if I think that this is a case of laziness, and if I have a little extra venom to vent on a particular day, I don't feel guilty about venting it on a lazy student. Besides, I personally try to include at lease some useful information in my "flame" - if others don't flame or if others don't help, why that is their prerogative.

"You have to roll with the punches." Students are free to ignore my comments, and part of growing up is learning to deal with adversity. I learned a long time ago you are not really doing anybody a favor by protecting them from reality. If they can't take a little anonymous sarcasm on the internet, what the devil will they do in their first job review session? It's a field for big boys and big girls, and it isn't my job to help them stay little all their lives!

"There is no such thing as a stupid question." Bullstuff!!!! I used to believe that. I now know there are stupid questions, stupid people, and lazy people who do not deserve my assistance and are unlikely to benefit from it anyway. In my not-at-all-humble opinion the trick is to let the stupidity be their problem - my problem is how I respond to it.

I have suggested before that Phil include a FAQ section to deal with some of the perennial "favorites". This could include not only the traffic light question, but legitimate inquiries we see a lot, such as converting analog data to engineering units. For convenience, I would also like to see it include "Flame No. 23" type posts, where we can spare ourselves having to type in the same old comments to the same old stupid questions from NYP or whatever! But, it is Phil's site. I respect him, and I respect his right to do with this site what he wants. I'm just grateful to him for an opportunity to help a few people, and to feed my ego, and to occasionally vent some spleen!

Now is the time for the "Amen"!

faq's

Hi Folks,
If you're in the US, I hope you're enjoying the holiday weekend. The wife had me making a walkway/landscaping today and painting one of the kids rooms tomorrow. It's nice to get a holiday...

Anyway, how about a new heading group for this forum. One entilted faq's and including some of the common student questions with answers (not flames).
Basically I'll copy the appropriate threads from this section and add them there. (locked) I can also take some of them from the old forum and manually cut/paste them into this forum. I think overtime the common questions/answers are here somewhere...

So, please vote for which threads should be there.(include a link as well)
I'll start a new thread where you can post a link to the thread you think should be there.

To summarize, I'll create a new heading on the main page (like announcements, practice posting here) called faq's (or something more obvious). Then I'll copy (not move) appropriate threads there. They'll be locked. Old forum and new forum topics will be eligable. Add a link to the appropriate thread called faq's in this forum if you think something should be there.

Newbies VS. Old Timers ?
I may be the only person here that's not prejudiced!

I Hate Everyone ! !