What is wrong with people?

Who are the powers that be on this site? I've always thought it was strange that there is basically 1 forum for all questions (Live Q&A). Maybe its time to create another one for students and thier more generic theoretical questions. That way, when answering a question we'll know that its generic and wont waste time asking for more info on the process. People who tire of those questions can just avoid that forum. And, every once in a while, when pople like me are feeling down, we can go help those kids out and feel smrot again! Win-Win-Win. As an added benefit, maybe the traffic wont be so high in the forum with the real world questions. When the number of threads with new posts is over 1 page, I never go back and look at the second page. This might keep important threads from getting lost on high traffic days.

Now, I dont seem to have any louvers on my laptop. How about I just put the $5 on my keyboard and close the lid?


-jeff

What is it about certain questions and their repetition that annoys? Is it the equivalent of "compassion fatigue" among this community?

The first guy to ask about traffic lights gets an answer, so does the second guy, so does the third. The fifty-first guy to ask about traffic lights gets told to look for first guy's post etc. The hundred-and-first guy's question gets a flippant response and not much of value, until someone (maybe 'first guy'?) takes pity and advises him.

Stephen's circle and Goody's spiral may be real. The regulars here eventually despair at seeing the same question reappearing again and again. They gradually realise that no matter how often they answer it, the problem is more pervasive than they are. I'll bet the last question ever to be asked on this forum in years to come will be about traffic lights.

You can treat it just like charity. You see a row of starving faces in some African village on TV and you donate a sum of money to a relief fund. And then next year another row of faces, and another donation. And so on. And eventually you begin to think that you will never make a difference. There are more starving people than your money can feed. Fundamentally this is the wrong way to tackle starvation, by throwing money at it.

Similarly throwing answers at each student who needs a traffic light answer for an assignment by tomorrow is the wrong way of handling the problem. At least in this environment we have the luxury of choosing to ignore them if we wish. Each person who answers a low-level or poorly phrased question encourages more of this type and should perhaps take responsibility for dealing with them in future.

Is this fair? Is this practical? Am I mad?

Ken

Ken M in part said:

Similarly throwing answers at each student who needs a traffic light answer for an assignment by tomorrow is the wrong way of handling the problem.

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How many assignments of this nature (magnitude) would be assigned overnight?

Seems like the reason most are last minute is that they waited until the last minute.

I think part of the problem is the moronic instructors who continue to assign traffic light homework. First of all, PLCs are not used to program traffic lights. Secondly, a ten second google search will send students to sites like this to get their homework done anyway. Instructors have to spend a little time (five minutes maybe?) in coming up with new homework problems that might actually challenge a student.

The best thing that could ever happen would be for Phil to sticky a thread right at the top called "Traffic Light Homework Solution" complete with a working ladder logic diagram. Maybe teachers would stop assigning this stupid problem.

There, that's my rant for the week.

I have another suggestion. Instead of telling the poster to search, or rephrase the question, or try it first then you might get help, just don't answer. I would bet that if you didn't propagate that thread, it would soon fall off the radar. You might get the person who asks several times then posts something deragatory, but just ignore it. I learned very early on to not waste my time. I try to help only those that I feel I can add something beneficial (OK, so there have been a few posts where I said absolutely NOTHING useful), but I really don't get upset about the traffic light question, because I just ignore it.


Just a suggestion.

info

When I started asking questions here I was not aware of the vast amount of info available. Many of my questions might have appeared to be stupid questions, but when you attempt to learn a new subject the lingo and functions can be overbearing. I was finally able to take a live class and that helped some. Most of my learning has been accomplished by many hours of study and practice and with the help of gracious folks here at this site.

Sooooooooo, thanks to all and if I post I am looking for interaction from learned folks such as Ron B and others. All of you have been most helpful and as mentioned the search functiion has been helpful, but at times daunting to sort through.

For me, and I am sure many others, the site has been most helpul and if I was a student looking for someone to do my homework I am sure I would get busted rather quickly.

In our busy lives it can be annoying to see questions posted by someone wanting to take the path of least resistance. It can cause short-circuits for all those who offer their time and experience.

Switchman said:

I don't recall who, but somebody just recently posted (or re-posted) these links.
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/hacker-howto.html
http://catb.org/%7Eesr/faqs/smart-questions.html

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Hey switchman, interesting links. I'm curious, do you consider us hackers? I mean, I'm seeing all the same attitudes and all, but we program PLCs and MMIs, not necesarily the kind of code usually associated with hackers. At least not all of us do, some probably do a bit of both, but we're here to talk about PLCs. I've always considered myself a hacker at heart, but not really because i started doing this stuff after college and kinda stopped messing around with the real coding.


-jeff

Hakutsuru said:

...because i started doing this stuff after college and kinda stopped messing around with the real coding.


-jeff

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Hey now wait just a minute ... it doesn't get any more real than PLC programming ... Think about it. Most factory production would come to a screeching halt without our software...can't really say that about PC programs.

My take on the redundant questions that keep popping up is much like the others have said. We were all newbies once and had to start somewhere. I didn't even know what a forum was until I discovered this place.

Also, like Bruce, I tend to ignore the really ignorant posts, and try to exercise patience with those that "appear" to deserve it.

OkiePC said:

Hey now wait just a minute ... it doesn't get any more real than PLC programming ... Think about it. Most factory production would come to a screeching halt without our software...can't really say that about PC programs.

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Well, I certainly didn't mean to offend (Which is good, because I don't think I did), but to me, the 'real' programmers in factory automation are the ones who write the HMIs, who write the programming software, the ones who write the drivers. All the software we use and setup. When I first started doing this work, I wore the title of 'programmer' with reluctance. It seemed more like configuring than programming to me.

Now, I've changed my thinking a little since then. You could definitely make a case that the PLC software we use is nothing more than a complier, and that ladder logic code is every bit as 'real' as C code. But, I still consider MMI work to be a fancy form of configuration (on par with being able to setup your network card or change your display settings). True, knowledge of scripting is helpful at times, but no longer necesary with things like ActiveX objects. And I don't even know where skill sets like building communication cables and wiring IO would fit into the hacker world. So I never considered myself a hacker. But reading those links got me to thinking, which is why I posed the question. Do you guys consider yourselves hackers?

-jeff

Hakutsuru, if you want to follow that line of thinking, then even C-Code isn't "real" as it too would be a "configuration" of machine language. Personally, I'm more inclined to think of PLC more as programming than HMI.

And whether or not I consider myself a hacker has nothing to do with my job as a PLC/MMI programmer. I can do one without doing the other... though hacking abilities sometimes have benefits for MMI programming/configuration.

Well I have to add my 2 cents... I only ask stupid questions after I've read the manual 6 or 8 times, googled the world, searched here and other places, torn my hair out, called everyone I know who might know, read the manuals again, searched the help files, thrown the manuals out in the yard and shoot at them a while... Then I ask stupid questions because I can't figure it out...

John

I'm in agreement with different sections of the site. Perhaps divided by platform and then even further. I for one love the interaction with other members and most of the time my initial question leads to something else i am dealing with and i find i learn the most that way. I will sit here with my finger on the post new topic button for a few minutes and then just X out the page because i feel i am wasting someone elses time. I am constantly amazed by the capabilities of the plc and programming techniques i see in use. Sometimes the slc intruction help file just doesn't make sense to me and i need someone to break it down "barney-style" for me. Finally, i get alot of motivation by asking questions and working with other people on the site to resolve my issue. It always seems like i am presented with a much simpler solution that can only come from experience. I have a binder with countless articles by ron beaufort and ansers fro rsdoran and alaric. Its like my plc bible. No matter how many times i read it, i always come away woth something new.

I sort of drifted off topic but going back to the original question, seperate sections would really be nice and should help preserve peter's sanity

The problem with separate sections is that Murphy's Law and my experience with human nature indocates that the people we most want to segregate or use different posting areas are the exact ones least likely to follow the correct path.

OZEE said:

Hakutsuru, if you want to follow that line of thinking, then even C-Code isn't "real" as it too would be a "configuration" of machine language. Personally, I'm more inclined to think of PLC more as programming than HMI.

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C isn't real. I could go for that. I loved programming in machine language in school (Machine language is hex right?). I once almost got a job where the RTU programmed in hex, and I was practically foaming at the mouth I was so excited. But, friggen proprietary code kept us from being able to do it.

OZEE said:

And whether or not I consider myself a hacker has nothing to do with my job as a PLC/MMI programmer. I can do one without doing the other... though hacking abilities sometimes have benefits for MMI programming/configuration.

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Yeah, I agree with that statement. I've worked with PLC/MMI people who just didn't seem to have 'it'. You know, they could go through the motions, and they were capable programmers, but they didn't seem to get what was going on. Thier programs were messy and buggy and too complicated. I always attributed that to them not having any experience with traditional programming languages, (ya know, C, perl, etc). Now I'm wondering if it has more to do with the hacker mindset, which I've always had.

Anyway, sorry for going off on a tangent, its just that reading about 'how to become a hacker' opened my eyes. Seriously, today my job satisfaction went way up because I started thinking in those terms. Not that I was unhappy before, mind you. Its just something I hadn't thought about before, and I'm running with it.

Maybe I should start a new thread. I just noticed there's a user named PLChacker ... I'm sure I'd like to hear what he thinks.




-jeff

1) regarding those who don't search first . . .

I still am awed by the 'noise' one encounters on this site's home page. When I first found the site several years ago, I quickly bookmarked the Q&A page and Q&A is all I ever see now. But I can understand the navigation confusion that newcomers might encounter sorting through the noise.

I rarely post questions and when I do, I have to diligently search for the 'post new topic' button.

2) Regarding grouping in topics . . .

I figure it's up to the poster to describe his problem well enough in the title line to interest someone in answering.

Those who don't make that effort probably aren't going to be helped by 'grouping'. They'll get that wrong too.

But one argument against it is that I don't mind the minute or two I spend skim reading the titles as they are now presented, looking for questions that I can help on. I'm an instrument/Modbus guy and I would miss questions tucked into specific groups like AB or Siemens or GE, as evidenced by my reading on the other PLC site, MrPLC. I read the 'general' topics and occasionally 'other PLCs'. Sensor and instrument questions in the groups go unseen.

I like the format of this site. I consider this site the Cadillac, the one others should emulate.
Dan