SCADA - Ignition vs Wonderware, Siemens S7-300 via Profibus

ASF

Lifetime Supporting Member
Join Date
Jun 2012
Location
Australia
Posts
3,907
Hi all,

Got a client who has requested a SCADA system for downtime tracking and so on. Right now, they want to implement it as a standalone system on one machine, and then potentially expand out to other machines after proof-of-concept is done.

The PLC we have to start on is an S7-300 on a not-insignificant Profibus network, programed with Step 7 v5.5. The processor has both Profibus ports in use, so I don't think that switching to a PN/DP processor to give me profibus and profinet is an option at this stage (although happy to be proved wrong).

I'm wavering between Ignition and Wonderware for the SCADA. Given that the system will start off as one standalone PC/PLC, and then potentially expand to several PLC's with a server/client SCADA architecture, will either of those options serve me better from a scalability/cost perspective? I have enquiries out with both suppliers, but both of them are of course going to tell me that they're cost effective and scalable, so I thought I'd get some input from the people on the pointy end.

Also, any recommendations for getting either of the packages to interface to a Profibus network?
 
+1 Ignition, but are you getting into true MES functions for OEE? Or just rolling something custom? MES means Sepasoft modules into Ignition get those features.
 
+1 Ignition, but are you getting into true MES functions for OEE? Or just rolling something custom? MES means Sepasoft modules into Ignition get those features.

I'm not sure if autocorrect got your last sentence, or if it just went straight over my head ;)

The initial goal is mainly downtime tracking - whenever the machine is down, allow the operator to select a downtime code and enter some comments, and then at the end of each shift produce some reports to visualize the causes of downtime to help them improve their OEE. There's no interfacing with product databases, material tracking, or any other real MES stuff at this stage, although no doubt that will come into play down the track.
 
+1 on Ignition. Where this product excels is getting ‘stuff’ in and out of a database. NOTHING on the market has an easier interface to any database that supports a JDBC connection.
 
And ignition runs on Linux, so if you want to run it on redundant 8 core servers with 30 clients (need CALs?) you don't have to pay a small fortune in windows licences.

Ignition Installation takes 10mimutes (factoring in time to download the install files even if you don't have NBN). Yes, I have been in the same room as an 8hr Wonderware installation took place. No, I didn't offer to switch roles.

I prefer to have ethernet only SCADA servers. Do the ethernet to Profinet conversion with a standalone hardware unit. I don't know a cross reference of all the Siemens parts, but maybe adding an S7 PN/DP or 2 will fit the bill.
 
Last edited:
I'm not sure if autocorrect got your last sentence, or if it just went straight over my head ;)

"Downtime tracking" is a bit of a grey word. It's the gateway into MES functions. The company that provides MES functionality for Ignition is Sepasoft. They have an OEE module for Ignition (among other MES modules), so I was trying to understand what downtime meant in your case. You can create some basic tracking with just Ignition, but depending on your vision it might be good to look at the OEE module as a starting point. A bit more of an investment up front but you won't out grow it like you might a custom Ignition solution.
 
Another vote for Ignition.

For the comms I would suggest adding an ethernet card to the S7 rack. IA have their own siemens driver but from experience I would say pay the extra and have Kepserver as a middle man between Ignition and the PLC.

You mention reporting, note that the reporting package Ignition has listed is an "unlimited" version, meaning you could have as many different reports being sent out as you like. You can get a 1 report licence for much much cheaper, and then expand this as you need. Talk to your account rep. On top of the 2 hour demo you should also be able to get a one time only 30 day trial, might help with proof of concept.
 
Thanks guys. The comparative responses I have from our Schneider rep and from Ignition are pushing me toward Ignition as well.

the_msp, can you give me any background as to why you'd go with Kepware rather than use the native Siemens drivers?

Paully's, thanks for the tip, I'll look into Sepasoft and see what I find.

As to the interface, I'm looking at adding a SIPLUS Lean Ethernet modue to the PLC, perhaps the 6GK7343-1CX10-0XE0. Can anyone comment on whether this is going to make things easy or painful? I've worked with Siemens on existing SCADA's before, but never been the one to set it up from the ground, so this is my first time having to make these sorts of decisions :)
 
The last place I worked had s7-300 with, IIRC, that module... connected to kepserver and then on to wonderware.

A single Kepserver driver lic is going to cost around 2x the IA driver. I'm not saying the IA doesn't or won't work, but I've tried both (to an S7-400) and the Kep option was much easier.

Furthermore, for future scalability, if you have other PLC's on the shop floor that IA don't have a driver for, then you can just expand kep. Note that a suite of drivers as one package is much cheaper than buying them individually.

You didn't mention quantity of tags, but if it is large, you can have the OPC server on it's own dedicated PC.

Lastly, another reason for me using kepserver was that some of the PLCs were on a control only network not the business LAN. Therefore, I could install OPC on a PC on the control network, let it talk to the PLCs, and have Ignition as a bridge between the corporate and control networks.
 
Last edited:
Thanks Patrick. Good info, I'll give that some thought. So presumably, I'd just need the OPC UA driver for Ignition, and a single Kepware license to run that way?

At the moment, it's all Siemens, but future expansion is on the cards and it will *probably* be Siemens (and we all know what *probably* means here).

There's not a huge amount of tags, but the system will ultimately have to bridge the gap between a control network and a business network, so as a long-term vision, your approach might be beneficial here too.
 
So presumably, I'd just need the OPC UA driver for Ignition, and a single Kepware license to run that way?

Yes... and no... the IA OPC UA server is free... however KepServer is installed as an additional OPC server into the gateway IIRC, I'm back on site Friday and will confirm then, but looking at the gateway I have here (doesn't use Kep) to add a new OPC it rings a bell.

Note that if all PLCs are on the control network, you need one KepServer licence. If the PLCs aren't networked, then you need an OPC server on a PC on the same PLC network (or create your own PLC network)... this can get pricey fast.
 
Thanks. At the moment, none of the PLC's are networked - they're all Profibus arrangements. So for each PLC I bring online, I'll have to add the lean ethernet module, and at that point I can start creating a control network to put them all on the same one. But good to know!
 
I'm no Siemens guru but you could possibly have one as a master with a lean card and pull the information via DP from the others?
 
Last edited:
Possibly, but at the moment the machines are "islands", each with their own (quite complex) profibus network. They're not interconnected. The thought of trying to merge them all into one profibus network fills my heart with terror. I'd rather just buy them all their own module :D
 

Similar Topics

Hey Everyone, I need to Interface Ignition SCADA ethernet network to an Allen Bradley SLC5/04 Serial RS232 DF1. Has anyone out there found a low...
Replies
4
Views
932
I can't seem to find a clear answer on this. Say you have a plc and an hmi with ignition to control the plc(and of course all other things you do...
Replies
12
Views
5,097
Hi all, Looking for recommendations on some ethernet cameras suitable for hygienic/washdown areas, that I can embed into an Ignition SCADA...
Replies
5
Views
2,302
Hello All, I've not tried Ignition yet but it looks good. It looks to be aimed at factory level automation so I was wondering if anyone is using...
Replies
8
Views
3,521
Hello: I just thought some of you may want to see a report that we take from Ignition Scada. I work in the Oil & Gas Industry and this is a...
Replies
4
Views
1,777
Back
Top Bottom