What do facilities with haphazard wiring have in common?

RIP Hensley.
Mark, even though you know you've done the right thing, that dog-sized hole in your heart still hurts.

Thanks Steve and yes it does

Maxkling said:

I would try to look past the physical defining factors and looks more toward what the actual problem is. Like lack of education, under qualified, no direction, mis-management, no self discipline, etc. Anybody, any race, any nationality, can posses negative traits. Remember, we live in a world of “Caution Hot Coffee”, it’s not longer the individuals fault. If a maintenance guy is doing more harm than good or an operator is accessing panels they shouldn’t, then it’s not their fault. It’s the management of the facilities fault. I don’t necessarily agree with it, but it’s the world we live in.

If they can’t find a quality work force, then they are probably paying horribly and have no training programs or SOPs.

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rupej said:

Probably because most of those stereotypes have no scientific backing and any supposed "data" is usually just anecdotal and riddled with confirmation bias.


An interesting read on certain false stereotypes that you still commonly hear today.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2019/08/14/magazine/racial-differences-doctors.html

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Maybe there was not enough context in my post for this to be obvious, but I was not referring to skin color or any other immutable biological characteristic. There's no need to preach to me about the evils of eugenics. I was referring to people from a certain country, people with a certain culture, a certain way of doing things. If that's not a valid way to categorize then I don't know what is.

The average Texan is more likely to own guns than the average Californian.
The average Filipino eats a lot more rice than the average Norwegian.
The average Indian is less likely to wear underarm deodorant than the average American.
American kids are more likely to be disrespectful to elders than Japanese kids

Your behavior is not influenced by skin color or the texture of your hair. That is obvious. Your behavior is definitely influenced by the way you were raised, which is definitely influenced by your culture. Are you really going to suggest otherwise? Is it not obvious?

geniusintraining said:

You had to go there... this is Hensley, he was my partner for the past 10 years, I took him to work and everywhere else everyday, I could not asked for a better partner, we had to put him to sleep Saturday

Man I miss him

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I am very sorry to hear of the passing of your partner. Sorry for scratching the scab.

strantor said:

Your behavior is not influenced by skin color or the texture of your hair. That is obvious. Your behavior is definitely influenced by the way you were raised, which is definitely influenced by your culture. Are you really going to suggest otherwise? Is it not obvious?

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Agreed. Stated another way

• "Culture" is what I, and those around me in my "culture," DO.
• "Race*" is** what I "AM."

Caveats
* if such a thing as "race" exists
** one among many ways of defining




Given those presuppositions, and relevant to what the OP is asking, culturally, I have heard the cultural reference "life is cheap in the third world."

Perhaps moving a random wire in a panel has a much greater potential for gain than the potential loss due injury or worse, in such a culture.


Examples from someone who went on vacation in a "third world" country:

1. They saw a power line between two distant power poles supported by being wrapped around a branch of a tree.
2. While standing in the water around the drain they reached up to adjust a shower head and got a shock. They had not noticed the wires in the shower head, which had an internal switch that turned on a heating coil; once the switch toggled due to water pressure, the lower the water rate, the hotter the water (deltaT = k Q / Flow; to first order, i.e. k and Q are more or less constant).

drbitboy said:

Agreed. Stated another way

• "Culture" is what I, and those around me in my "culture," DO.
• "Race*" is** what I "AM."

Caveats
* if such a thing as "race" exists
** one among many ways of defining




Given those presuppositions, and relevant to what the OP is asking, culturally, I have heard the cultural reference "life is cheap in the third world."

Perhaps moving a random wire in a panel has a much greater potential for gain than the potential loss due injury or worse, in such a culture.


Examples from someone who went on vacation in a "third world" country:

1. They saw a power line between two distant power poles supported by being wrapped around a branch of a tree.
2. While standing in the water around the drain they reached up to adjust a shower head and got a shock. They had not noticed the wires in the shower head, which had an internal switch that turned on a heating coil; once the switch toggled due to water pressure, the lower the water rate, the hotter the water (deltaT = k Q / Flow; to first order, i.e. k and Q are more or less constant).

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Thank you! Finally someone who will not feign ignorance!

I think what you're saying about the value of life and the different evaluation of risk vs. reward in impoverished vs. prosperous countries is generally true. That is probably the root of the issue. However I have not witnessed the same levels of unnecessary risk taken by all cultural groups coming from "3rd world" countries. Some groups seem to embrace risk more than others. The group which inspired this post, is the most extreme in this regard (in my experience) .

Boy, this thread really took a turn... LOL!
Everyone else, resume course and speed...

geniusintraining said:

You had to go there... this is Hensley, he was my partner for the past 10 years, I took him to work and everywhere else everyday, I could not asked for a better partner, we had to put him to sleep Saturday

Man I miss him

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Hi Mark,
Very sorry about Hensley. My Black Lab Luna was my best buddy. We went everywhere together. Just pick up my keys and shes jumping... There is a lot we could both say, and a lot others could as well with a loss of a best friend.

It was very difficult to do the same thing you had to do.

Luna contracted a fairly rare tumor. The vet sent me to a specialist you needed a referral to go to. They checked her out and said they really don't understand this type of tumor, so anything would be experimental at best. They said best would be 2 months after surgery, but also said with proper meds, maybe 6 months. Well, the meds/diet did help for a few months, but the tumor exploded in growth in less that a week in one particular time. I had no choice.

Another thing that really sucked is 7 weeks after I buried Luna, my Mom died from cancer. Talk about a crappy spring. We only found out my Mom had cancer two days after I buried Luna.


The empty spot never goes away... Good memories console...

As one who has been a technician for years I have seen a lot out on the floor of a facility. A lot of companies want you to be a jack of all trades when it comes to keeping the machines running. In a lot of cases, training is following another tech around for a few weeks at best and then your on your own.



Panels get to be the rats nest they are because the techs are under pressure to get that machine back up and running as fast as possible, in a lot of cases, with not having the right parts on hand. So wires get pulled out of the panduits and left hanging, when you do replace parts inside, rarely does the labeling get put on the replacement so now it gets harder to follow the schematics since components are unlabeled. Then over time, the schematics go missing and nobody thought to make a copy.



Just last week a line went down because the motor on the conveyor tripped out. We got it going again, the motor was clogged with dust and debris, but the damage was done. It was reported that the needed to be replaced, but its an oddball motor. 360volts @ 50hz. (an old German made stacker system with pure relay logic) It was forgotten about until this past week when it gave out again and the production manager had promised a customer an order by Monday. Now its near the weekend in the afternoon and he wanted it running that day. Knowing that most likely they will have to get a replacement from Germany with a long lead time the only reasonable option was to bring in another power source that was conventional (120V, 480V, etc..) and piggyback into the original circuit, but this was not a quick fix, it would take time to implement (and of course get the parts for it) They took it as "Oh can you have this up by the end of today?"



I have learned when dealing with production managers, whenever they ask how long a repair will take to never tell them the truth. I go by what engineer Scotty of Star Trek always said, multiply it by a factor of 2 to 4 because they will hold you to your estimate and the chances are good something unexpected will happen to delay the repair. This way you give yourself extra time for the unexpected, and if you happen to fix it in the time you really thought it would take, you look like a miracle worker.



Another thing is I did a temporary fix to utilize a motor/gearbox that used 120 volts by bringing in a cord from an outlet to the cabinet then out to the conveyor. Now that its running, it most likely will not get addressed and put on the "back burner" and forgotten, all they care is its running even though the fix looks like ****, and using a plug instead of properly running a conduit to the cabinet.



That is how I see cabinets get to look like they do, never mind techs that are not electrical savvy and even go as far as defeating safety switches and such to get a machine running.


Mike

strantor said:

Sorry for scratching the scab.

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No worries I have always look for a reason to talk about him

padees said:

My Black Lab Luna was my best buddy. We went everywhere together. Just pick up my keys and shes jumping

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Yep I bought my wife a lab, she was our first family dog... smart, man those dogs are smart, we have cameras and she would wait at the door when we left until we got back home and just sit there. That must of been a tough spring, my mom is still going strong just not sure when I will get to see her with all the virus stuff, she lives in Reno

strantor said:

However I have not witnessed the same levels of unnecessary risk taken by all cultural groups coming from "3rd world" countries. Some groups seem to embrace risk more than others. The group which inspired this post, is the most extreme in this regard (in my experience) .

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Yes and I have not seen what you have, so I am just talking from my experiences. a little history on mine, (back in the day) we were bought out by a German company, they came in and brought new equipment and they had their own precise ways of doing everything, great people I learned a lot from them and they could party like there was no tomorrow but when it came to work everything and I mean everything could only be done one way, for the most part it was a safe and good way... then we were sold back to an american company, they bought some Chinese equipment, it was large maybe 10 PLC's 10 HMI's tons of motion and the Chinese came and installed it again great people but this was a complete 180 from the Germans... they would carry a pair of scissors around and do more with a pair of scissors then I could never emagine, not that is was wrong just way different.

My point is I agree its more of a cultural thing but when we are in their culture we are playing by their rules, we are not going to change their mind set even if our way is a better/safe way, we did go back and change a few things once both of them left.

geniusintraining said:

Yes and I have not seen what you have, so I am just talking from my experiences. a little history on mine, (back in the day) we were bought out by a German company, they came in and brought new equipment and they had their own precise ways of doing everything, great people I learned a lot from them and they could party like there was no tomorrow but when it came to work everything and I mean everything could only be done one way, for the most part it was a safe and good way... then we were sold back to an american company, they bought some Chinese equipment, it was large maybe 10 PLC's 10 HMI's tons of motion and the Chinese came and installed it again great people but this was a complete 180 from the Germans... they would carry a pair of scissors around and do more with a pair of scissors then I could never emagine, not that is was wrong just way different.

My point is I agree its more of a cultural thing but when we are in their culture we are playing by their rules, we are not going to change their mind set even if our way is a better/safe way, we did go back and change a few things once both of them left.

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Thank you for acknowledging the role that culture and country of origin play in the way groups of people do things. I suppose the unwritten rule is "positive examples only" but this is definitely an great improvement from the gaslighting that took place on the first two pages.

I share your experiences with Germans. I have worked alongside them many times, various companies in the USA and abroad, and your description has been more or less accurate in every instance. They work very hard and part even harder. They are very "by-the-book," very thorough and meticulous. Their products very well designed, excellent fit & finish, very efficient and fast. Overbuilt, really. Feel free to disagree with the next part but I Also found them very guarded about IP, their processes and programming shrouded in an impenetrable cloak of secrecy. German OEMs will go to extraordinary lengths to keep customers beholden to their service departments. They will go so far as to file off the part numbers of off-the-shelf components so that you only have one place to get them: THEM.

My dog goes to work with me every day so I feel your loss.

If on a morning I'm running late, he's sure to remind me by jingling the keys in the back door.
He sits next to me on the journey and I often point out things to him as we go.
Often pretty girls....

After a mind numbing breakdown or problem, travelling to the next job and taking a quick walk on a country lane is all you need to reset your brain.

Since this thread has kind of gone to the dogs anyway....

I feel for anybody that has to say goodbye to a dog. I put my best Rotti down 5 years ago due to bone cancer and it still hurts like yesterday.
I think that people in general can learn so much from dogs. They are kinder, simpler and more understanding than most humans with no prejudice to anybody and more loyal than any human ever could be. My wife is a groomer and there are always dogs around our house, as well as my own prized poodle. DON'T LAUGH! Poodles are awesome dogs!

Did anybody else see the story last week on the sheep dog in California that supervised his goats through the fire, after the farmers tried to get him to leave, he wouldn't. He was just to loyal to the goats and his job to leave, even in the face of certain death. Awesome story!

geniusintraining said:

I have seen 20 people from every background and walk of life from one coast to the other.... pull out a screwdriver and manually push in the motor starter contactor and then wonder why did that happen or how could that happen, (as they wonder to themselves "Will I still have a job later today?") as I stated before you can NOT teach common sense if they dont want to learn

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I've seen people do this before too but probably only on lighting contactors at 120V. Is the concern with manually operating a 400 or 600V motor contactor arc flash?

strantor said:

The average Texan is more likely to own guns than the average Californian.
The average Filipino eats a lot more rice than the average Norwegian.
The average Indian is less likely to wear underarm deodorant than the average American.
American kids are more likely to be disrespectful to elders than Japanese kids

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Those statements are not generalizations.

A generalization would be "All Texans own guns" or "All American kids are disrespectful to elders" even if the generalization is based originally on the statistical data you are quoting.

Aabeck said:

Those statements are not generalizations.

A generalization would be "All Texans own guns" or "All American kids are disrespectful to elders" even if the generalization is based originally on the statistical data you are quoting.

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Apparently there is no universally agreed upon definition of "generalization." I happen to agree with your interpretation, however I stand accused of making generalizations when what I said initially was even milder, even more carefully worded than those statements you just quoted.