Install SCADA on the Cloud?

FNC · Mar 6, 2020

I have been asked if it is possible to install a SCADA on the Cloud. The SCADA currently gets values from a PLC and datalogs them every 5 minutes.

My question is if anyone has done so and if there are issues with communicating with a PLC which is obviously not on the cloud?

Aabeck · Mar 6, 2020

I have a MicroSoft Azure account that lets me access over the internet a virtual desktop on their server. I do have PLC software on it and can get online with PLC's on my local network.

I am sure I could install a SCADA system on it and have it communicate with them.

That way the SCADA data and logs would be accessable also from anywhere.

If Azure can do it I am sure others have the ability also.

FNC · Mar 6, 2020

Thanks for the reply!

Saffa · Mar 6, 2020

Certainly possible, not always a good idea though.

You need to assess what happens when you lose the internet connection. What is the consequence of lost data?

A network edge device that communicates to the PLC and can buffer data should you lose connection may be required.

If the SCADA system also provides control functionality, what happens when this control is lost?

Aabeck · Mar 6, 2020

Saffa has a good point.

I was thinking only of data acquisition and monitoring - I wouldn't consider it for any controlling.

damica1 · Mar 6, 2020

There are several users of Ignition that use the cloud for their server. I think if your working with Amazon, Microsoft, Etc. it would not be them to drop a connection.

There's more to the real world then just the "Plant Floor".

the_msp · Mar 6, 2020

FNC - which SCADA package?

Aabeck - not really SCADA then if it's just scaDA. Use PowerBI or the likes if it's just reporting trends from SQL.

Aabeck · Mar 6, 2020

the_msp said:
Aabeck - not really SCADA then if it's just scaDA. Use PowerBI or the likes if it's just reporting trends from SQL.

Yes. As stated I, and Saffa, would not rely on a cloud connection to control a machine or process.

If the connection failed, for even a second, there could be disastrous and fatal results.

the_msp · Mar 6, 2020

Well, not to split hairs or trying to be pedantic but I'm a believer in Supervisory Control being just that - SCada loads the recipes up etc, Hands the job off to the local control (PLC(s')) and Data Acquisition reports back on those processes. Local or cloud, SCADA death should not result in human, machine or process death.

Aabeck · Mar 7, 2020

the_msp said:
Local or cloud, SCADA death should not result in human, machine or process death.

Now, if the cloud SCADA simply wrote the SC part to a local SCADA that could run safely if the connection was lost that would be OK, Then the cloud could then scaDA for logs and monitors, and I would add a monitor for communication loss.

Just I would have to ensure the entire recipe was received and verified to be sure that half way through there was not a comm's loss and the local system has half of 2 recipes.

the_msp · Mar 7, 2020

I agree on heartbeat, comms checks, and full recipe transfer checks; I would ensure that anyway, LAN or WAN... I have set up systems in plants where night shift operators don't want to wait on a technician so they take it upon themselves to swap about ethernet cables in dual NIC desktops... I refer to your signature... lol

I don't agree that you need a Local SCada and a cloud scaDA, a cloud SCADA with proper checks put in place to mitigate the effects of a WAN loss should be the same as a LAN SCADA with checks put in place for Jimmy's nightshift networking skills.

Again not trying to argue, this is a good discussion and points for the OP to take into consideration.

ramund · Mar 7, 2020

I think you can store different programs in the cloud. You don't have to use all the programs at once. If necessary, you'll be able to use cloud-based https://www.action1.com/ to deploy the program on any computer where you're comfortable

Kip Williams · Mar 12, 2020

My Company (Teronus) specializes in developing SCADA applications, and cloud deployment certainly works in some applications; however, there are some major issues to consider. Here are three big ones:

1> As others have said, the system is useless if the internet goes down. You will lose historical collection, the ability to generate alarm notifications, the ability to make set point adjustments, and facility dashboard displays.

2> There are speed limitations (especially with a large number of tags). If speed is critical, then keep it in-house.

3> Bandwidth costs money. And if you want fast data updates on a large number of tags that can get REALLY expensive. We put a mid-size system in place a few years back and after only a few months of monitoring, the customer’s IT department decided to move it in house. Keep in mind that you’re not just using bandwidth to connect PLCs to the cloud, but every user and dashboard display in the facility will also be eating up additional bandwidth.

GaryS · Mar 12, 2020

I would stay away from SCADA server in the cloud. It would be a very bad practice.
Another thing to consider is data security. Most cloud servers are public and if read the if you read the disclosures they tell you that your data is not secure. Then there is the problem of what are you going to do when the internet connection is down. Most cloud servers and the companies are offshore or when after of putting years of data in the cloud and they go out of business or hold you data for ransom.
While I agree that a cloud storage system can be a good idea but why not set one up in your local plant. A hard wired local connections. Most any IT guy can set one up for minimal costs
In most cases it a lot cheaper then an internet cloud and far more reliable and secure.
I myself have access to multiple cloud services Microsoft Cloud, Google Cloud, Norton Cloud, and others the only public one I have used just to share files is the one connected with my website I have switched over to a local cloud storage that I control. I know of a few others that have done the same thing.
I can even access it from my mobile phone all my data is safe and secure.

kamer · Apr 12, 2020

GaryS said:
I would stay away from SCADA server in the cloud. It would be a very bad practice.
Another thing to consider is data security. Most cloud servers are public and if read the if you read the disclosures they tell you that your data is not secure. Then there is the problem of what are you going to do when the internet connection is down. Most cloud servers and the companies are offshore or when after of putting years of data in the cloud and they go out of business or hold you data for ransom.
While I agree that a cloud storage system can be a good idea but why not set one up in your local plant. A hard wired local connections. Most any IT guy can set one up for minimal costs
In most cases it a lot cheaper then an internet cloud and far more reliable and secure.
I myself have access to multiple cloud services Microsoft Cloud, Google Cloud, Norton Cloud, and others the only public one I have used just to share files is the one connected with my website I have switched over to a local cloud storage that I control. I know of a few others that have done the same thing.
I can even access it from my mobile phone all my data is safe and secure.

You're absolutely right. Now data storage is a key issue.

Install SCADA on the Cloud?

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