Pool control with wireless remote

Hello,

I have just found this great forum a couple of days ago. I even spent several hours reading through the 800+ thread on Paula Stephens wire cutter project.

I am a retired electrical engineer, but it has been several years since I have been in the trenches, and even then I did more work with industrial power distribution (switchgear, transformers, motors, cables, etc) than I did with PLC's and industrial control.

I have a friend who just spent a ton of money on a dedicated control system for his swimming pool. It appears to me that the pool controllers offered by the pool controller manufacturers are 1) expensive for what they are, and 2) relatively inflexible to do anything "special" or out of the ordinary, and 3) unable to communicate with outside devices (other than by the manufacturer, at least for this particular brand [GoldLine])

My friend spent on the order of $1200 for a system that performs the following:

- 3 analog inputs for 10k thermistors
- one digital input for the chlorinator flow switch
- local 2 line display with 9 control buttons
- four 24 VAC digital outputs to valve actuators
- four 24 VDC relay outputs that then go to DPDT Omron relays that then control "high voltage" things such as 240 volt filter pump motors and cleaner booster pump, and 120 Volt pool and spa lights.
- two dry contacts for pool heater control (24 V)

The whole system is merely a circuit-board based microcontroller in a steel enclosure. The steel enclosure also contains the local display (mounted on standoffs on the microcontroller circuit board), a 100 Amp, 8 circuit "base" for lighting panel type 120/240 Volt circuit breakers (Square D type HOM or Cutler-Hammer type BR), and a stepdown transformer (120VAC to ?). Here is a picture of enclosure with the door open, and you can see the local display in the upper third of the picture.



All of the above is fairly strightforward in terms of both hardware and PLC programming to accomplish. Where I am running into trouble is replicating the wireless indoor remote (which is almost identical in looks to the local display) and the floating waterproof remote.

picture of wireless indoor remote (this picture is actually of the 8 "high-voltage" relay version instead of the 4 relay version. This unit actually has the same number of buttons as shown above for the local display)


picture of floating waterproof remote



Does anyone know of a source for wireless remotes for PLC's that might have a similar form factor to the above remotes?

And for going from 4 HV relays to 8 HV relays, the price goes from $1200 to $1400. And the price for going to 16 HV relays is $2000.

The key to pool control is, in my opinon, the wireless remotes. I may be getting soft and old, but few things are as unpleasant as getting out of a nice toasty 102 degree spa into the cold and trudging around the side of the house, in the dark, to adjust valves and/or heater temperature at the pool equipment pad.

Thanks,

Titanium

Titanium,

There are plenty of wireless relays that can be wired to the Input terminals of any PLC. There are many types of radio controllers for model cars, boats, and planes that could be adapted. There are wireless controllers for household receptacles circuits that might be used as inputs to a PLC.

There are many low-cost graphic operator terminals but I haven't seen a wireless one yet. Any of them could be adapted to connect to a wireless transmitter controller of some type.

However, the customized keypads may be difficult to replicate cheaply.

Lancie1,

Thanks for your reply.

However, the customized keypads may be difficult to replicate cheaply.

Click to expand...

The keypads do not have to look exactly like the ones pictured. I showed these pictures as just an example of the kind of size and functionality I was looking for.

There are many low-cost graphic operator terminals but I haven't seen a wireless one yet. Any of them could be adapted to connect to a wireless transmitter controller of some type.

Click to expand...

I'm probably being a bit slow tonight, but could you give an example of how one of the low-cost graphic operator terminals could be made wireless? I just found these today http://www.factorymation.com/s.nl/sc.2/category.1277/.f and they look pretty good. I'm not thrilled, though, about the $100 cost for the programming software.

There are plenty of wireless relays that can be wired to the Input terminals of any PLC.

Click to expand...

I'm a little confused. Did you mean to say "wireless remotes" instead of "wireless relays" in the quote above?

I'm thinking of going with either the Entertron board-level PLC's or the AD units.

Thanks for your help.

Titanium

wireless relays often feed to remote relays for digital control.

I'm a little confused. Did you mean to say "wireless remotes" instead of "wireless relays" in the quote above?

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No, I meant a wireless relay similar to the links below. There are many brands and types, some multi-channel. The reason I thought a wireless relay might work is that a wireless relay is very generic and could be adapted to supply inputs to many different brands and models of PLCs. Other types of wireless controllers might restrict you to certain voltage and current levels. Of course you need both a remote transmitter and the wireless relay receiver to have a complete system.

http://www.controlanything.com/Merchant2/merchant.mvc?Screen=CTGY&Store_Code=NCD&Category_Code=Wireless

http://www.rfsolutions.co.uk/acatalog/Remote_Control_System_200_Series.html

CroCop,

Thanks for your reply.

wireless relays often feed to remote relays for digital control.

Click to expand...

For my existing pool, all of the existing equipment is either at the existing equipment pad (filter pump, cleaner booster pump, heater, water temperature thermistor, pool/spa return valve actuator, pool/spa suction valve actuator, solar valve actuator) or is wired back to the equipment pad (pool light, spa light).

I suppose if I can retrofit my existing system with a reasonable cost solution, I could control new stuff that is not wired back to the equipment pad with these wireless relays / remote relays that you speak of.

My main concern right now is to identify a low-cost way to have a wireless handheld hmi or even just a set of wireless handheld pushbuttons in order to cause the proposed PLC (to be installed at the existing equipment pad) to be able to do "things". For example, one action that would be desired would be able to push a button for "spa mode". This would cause the PLC to turn both the pool/spa return valve actuator and the pool/spa suction valve from pool mode to spa mode. Another action that would be desireable would be to push a button to turn the heater either on or off in order to raise or lower the spa water temperature.

Please keep asking questions. I'm sure that I have been unclear on many things on my little project.

Thanks!

Titanium

My main concern right now is to identify a low-cost way to have a wireless handheld hmi or even just a set of wireless handheld pushbuttons in order to cause the proposed PLC (to be installed at the existing equipment pad) to be able to do "things". For example, one action that would be desired would be able to push a button for "spa mode".

Click to expand...

Exactly, you want the California Method. Connect (wire directly) a wireless relay (controller) to the PLC inputs, then use a remote multi-channel transmitter to turn on the proper wireless relay channel. The relay sends an input to the PLC. You PLC program sees the "Spa Mode" Input, then switches on all PLC Outputs necessary for "Spa Mode".

Here in Tennessee hill country, we just have to make sure to push the right button before we get into the tub.

Lancie1,

I was a little confused by your first link, but your second link does show a pushbutton based wireless transmitter, which is the sort of equipment that I'm looking for.

So let me see if I am following your correctly. You are proposing to use the rfsolutions wireless transmitter (or some sort of equal) to wirelessly communicate with a set of relays, which then are used as input signals to the PLC inputs?

I was sort of hoping that there would be wireless transmitters out there that would speak rs-232 or some other PLC communications protocol such that the pushbutton actions would be input into the PLC in this way. It is not clear to me if pushbutton "inputs" that get into the PLC via RS-232 would use up digital inputs as such, or whether these pushbutton "inputs" would be just mapped to various PLC memory locations.

And it is very possible that I am really just confused and don't know what I'm doing. Remember that I'm a power guy and PLC control for me was just a hobby during my working days. Wireless in my day was very expensive and usually done by other groups than our power distribution group. I think I have a very large learning curve in front of me....

Titanium

I was sort of hoping that there would be wireless transmitters out there that would speak rs-232 or some other PLC communications protocol such that the pushbutton actions would be input into the PLC in this way.

Click to expand...

If you go back to the first link, there are some wireless transmitters that accept RS232 inputs. Interfacing an RS232 device with a PLC can be difficult. It is supposed to be a standard, but there may be small differences in protocols, timing, buffer sizes, and baud rates.

It is not clear to me if pushbutton "inputs" that get into the PLC via RS-232 would use up digital inputs as such, or whether these pushbutton "inputs" would be just mapped to various PLC memory locations.

Click to expand...

No, if you could get a wireless device that has an RS232 output port, and if you could get it to talk to a PLC with an RS232 input port, then you would not use up any PLC Input terminals. I bet you would find it a lot easier in the long term to go ahead and use up the PLC Inputs. I would guess you could get by with 20 or 30 Inputs and you can get that many on a low-cost PLC. It would save you a lot of headaches.

Titanium said:

So let me see if I am following your correctly. You are proposing to use the rfsolutions wireless transmitter (or some sort of equal) to wirelessly communicate with a set of relays, which then are used as input signals to the PLC inputs?

Click to expand...

You're spot on with that. It is very typical for remote hand held devices to have a push button transmitter that wirelessly connects to a reciever with relays that interface to PLCs or other automation components.

Lancie1,

It looks like my last posting just missed yours.

Here in Tennessee hill country, we just have to make sure to push the right button before we get into the tub.

Click to expand...

Well, we're not quite that decadent out here as you might think. We also push the correct buttons before getting into the spa. What happens later is one of three scenarios.

1. A bunch of people are in the spa, and then some get out. Now the water level is lower than it should be. And then I get to get up out of the nice hot spa into the cold air, and trudge over to the dark scary part of the yard where the pool equipment pad is located. Then I get to manipulate some valves so that the spa can fill up. And then I get to stand there for 1-5 minutes until the water is at the right level, and then turn the valves back to spa mode. This really takes the nice buzz of the wine right out of the old system.

2. Some people start complaining that the spa water has gotten too hot. So again I get to make my pilgramage to the equipment pad and either turn off the heater, or adjust some valves in order to bring some cooler pool water into the spa. Or conversely, somebody wants the spa water even hotter than it is, and I get to go over to the equipment pad and turn up the thermostat setting on the heater.

3. We are all done with spa and the goal for everybody is to get towels around them and skedaddle into the house just as quickly as possible. Everybody, that is, except me. Lucky me gets to go guess where in order to return the valves to pool mode, turn off the heater, and turn off the filter pump motor. Even though the filter pump motor really ought to run for another five minutes or so to get the latent heat out of the heater coils.


I think you can discern a nasty trend here. Even though everyone in my family loves the spa, only I get the priviledge of goofing around at the equipment pad.

Now for our new scenario with a new PLC and new wireless remote. Somebody wants the heater turned off. No problemo, let me just grab my handy-dandy waterproof floating spa remote and push the heater button which turns off the heater.

Or a bunch of my fat friends exit the spa and now the spa water is too low. I take my handy-dandy spa remote and push the various valve buttons such that the spa fills right back up with water again. All the while this is going on my wine (or margarita) is never out of my hand. Life is good.

Titanium

http://web6.automationdirect.com/adc/Shopping/Catalog/Operator_Interfaces/C-more_Micro-Graphic_Panels/C-more_Micro-Graphic_Panels/EA1-S3ML

IP65. Won't float in the pool, & not outdoors, but kinda the idea.

This really takes the nice buzz of the wine right out of the old system.

Click to expand...

Now we are getting to the heart of the problem. Simply switch over to Jack Daniels Tennesse Sipping Whiskey. After a couple shots, no one will care if the water is low, high, hot, or cold!

Just how big is this tub anyway? Couldn't you mount one of those Automation Direct Panels that CroCop recommended on a stand next to the tub, then connect it with a cable back to an Automation Direct PLC in the equipment room? It would be simple, easy, and reliable.

Otherwise it will be hard to come up with any wireless devices better than your original pictures.

CroCop,

http://web6.automationdirect.com/ad...Panels/EA1-S3ML

IP65. Won't float in the pool, & not outdoors, but kinda the idea.

Click to expand...

You are suggesting this for the local panel, I assume? I don't see how this panel would lbe usable as a handheld remote.

Ttitanium

Lancie1,

Now we are getting to the heart of the problem. Simply switch over to Jack Daniels Tennesse Sipping Whiskey. After a couple shots, no one will care if the water is low, high, hot, or cold!

Click to expand...

Good suggestion, but I'm afraid that whiskey was for when I was younger.

Just how big is this tub anyway? Couldn't you mount one of those Automation Direct Panels that CroCop recommended on a stand next to the tub, then connect it with a cable back to an Automation Direct PLC in the equipment room? It would be simple, easy, and reliable.

Click to expand...

The spa is an integral part of the pool and is roughly 350 gallons. The spa/pool is only about 50 feet or so from the equipment pad, but there is a lot of concrete and finished landscaping between here and there. Plus, I want to use this wireless handheld remote both in the spa and from the house. Many times I will add a gallon of 10% liquid chlorine (sodium hypochlorite) at night. I will turn on the filter pump for an hour or so to ensure that the chlorine is properly distributed. When the hour is up, it would be nice to click a button on the handheld remote rather than go outside. Lazy? Definitely!!

Otherwise it will be hard to come up with any wireless devices better than your original pictures.

Click to expand...

Now that you guys dragged me kicking and screaming last night around to the realization that wireless relay inputs to the PLC was the way to go rather than my impractical fantasy of wireless RS-232, I have found some wireless transmitter/receiver combo's that look interesting from both a cost and form factor perspective.

First one I found. I couldn't find a cost, and four buttons doesn't seem like enough.
http://www.bwieagle.com/air-eagle sr.htm

True DIY approach. Cost is right, but I think 4 channels is not enough.
http://www.glolab.com/k4a/k4a.html

Now here we go. 8 channels for only $118. And no assembly required.
http://www.vellemanusa.com/us/enu/product/view/?id=522383
http://www.apogeekits.com/rf_remote_control_set.htm

10 channel for only $65. Requires assembly. The transmitter is nice and small, but channels 5 through 10 require pushing 2 buttons simultaneously.
http://www.electronickits.com/kit/complete/elec/ck1618.htm

I can't believe that those darned pool guys are the only one to make a small waterproof wireless pushbutton transmitter. They make a nice little unit, but the only problem is that it only talks with their microcontroller circuit board, and not my proposed generic PLC approach.

I wonder if it would be worthwhile to take a defunct spa remote from these guys (which I don't have and don't know if I could find) and take out their electronics, keep their case and waterproof pushbutton membrane and stick in my own electronics that will talk to the needed wireless relays?? hmmm.

Titanium