Micrologix approaching product end of life

ElectricalHammer said:

If its 'such a simple machine' that its hard to justify a Compact Logix, this is exactly why I purchased a single 5380 5069-L380ERMS2 to run about 12 smaller stations via remote IO (EthernetIP & CIP safety).

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LOL (not at you) the list price is 18k on a L380ERM, my budget on my last 10 project was less than 18k total

geniusintraining said:

LOL (not at you) the list price is 18k on a L380ERM, my budget on my last 10 project was less than 18k total

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Okay, okay... its all relative. Actual price on the 380 is just under $12k. It's safety and motion mind you, and may be complete overkill for many. I have 'stations' with a robot or two and a couple mass flow control valves, or a VFD turntable and a couple laser distance sensors, stuff like that. Right now I'm sure I could get away with something 1/4 the power, but there are going to be many more 'stations' added and this allows me plenty of breathing room. Just saying: use remote IO and a central PLC to run multiple machines if you can.

ElectricalHammer, I don't want you to think I'm second-guessing your decision, but I'd appreciate it if you would tell us how you balance concerns about a single point of failure against having enough of a PLC to be able to handle whatever you can throw at it from multiple stations.

Steve Bailey said:

ElectricalHammer, I don't want you to think I'm second-guessing your decision, but I'd appreciate it if you would tell us how you balance concerns about a single point of failure against having enough of a PLC to be able to handle whatever you can throw at it from multiple stations.

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Single point of failure is a valid concern...



I'm seriously thinking about it for one of our lines here. It has about 8 or 10 CompactLogix PLCs, mostly lower end models. None of the machines can run if another is locked out anyway, so it would be a decent candidate for such an architecture, especially if we kept spares on hand in case of central PLC failure. With the undocumented spaghetti-pile of safety interlock wiring and random weird glitches that are probably caused by network overloading, I would dearly love to drop in a GuardLogix with several comm modules to isolate traffic and be done with it. Price & lead time, though...

gbradley said:

Do you have 12 different programs running on the CompactLogix?

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Yes

joseph_e2 said:

Single point of failure is a valid concern...



I'm seriously thinking about it for one of our lines here. It has about 8 or 10 CompactLogix PLCs, mostly lower end models. None of the machines can run if another is locked out anyway, so it would be a decent candidate for such an architecture, especially if we kept spares on hand in case of central PLC failure. With the undocumented spaghetti-pile of safety interlock wiring and random weird glitches that are probably caused by network overloading, I would dearly love to drop in a GuardLogix with several comm modules to isolate traffic and be done with it. Price & lead time, though...

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What you are talking about is pretty much how most machines at Tesla Texas are designed; one PLC (Siemens 1500) with 6-18 'stations' (They use SICAR so they are called 'OpModes') and all remote IO/valve banks, etc. Like you said, they are all interlocked anyways into one line so its not like you can run anyways if any one of them goes out, so you are actually decreasing your chances of downtime by only having one PLC.

I always keep a recent backup and have a spare on hand. My backup even has the most recent program already loaded onto it so if it went down when I'm not available they could probably just swap it out. When is the last time you guys have had an actual PLC from the last decade go out on you? I haven't. Maybe as an integrator I might have one in a batch arrive DOA, but once they are up and running they last forever. Sure, I've seen IO modules on a rack go out, or the consequences of rack IO messing up the PLC, but I don't run PLC rack IO anymore... its all remote IO, valve manifold IO, etc.

Since PULS came out with those field DC PSU's and NTRON has those M12 (IP67 rated components) switches, I don't even do panel builds anymore. I hide the PLC in the HMI box too so I don't need a Grace Port or anything. If I do have to make a servo cabinet, its just a little box with an Eaton OLI sequestered disconnect... I've been doing that to all PDP cabinets since they came out with that line, but now with mostly Fanuc robots and EthernetIP devices, I barely build cabinets. Maintenance loves that everything is easy to see, out in the open, etc. No terminal strips to mess with for the most part, just M12 cables for almost everything.

I also prefer putting mGuards on all machines for remote access, and this can lead to some rather jenky networks if you have a dozen smaller PLC's to connect to. With one PLC, I have one mGuard to tunnel in with and just one port on one switch.

My 380ERMS2 cost around $12k and had a 9 month lead time. My understanding is that most 5069's are about that backed up now, and everything with CIP safety is 9-12 months out due to the CIP chip only being made by one place in Europe. My team wants to 'add a little station here, and another there' and not have to wait 6+ months for components. With the 'master PLC', I just grab some Turck blocks that I keep stock on (one safety block for E-Stop, door, etc. and the rest are typical EIP), M12 cables, an E-Stop button and whatnot, and away we go. Most of my devices other than servos are just 2-3 months out and most Fanucs are down to 2-3 months, so machines can get built quickly here now. It used to take a year from concept to build... now at least on the controls end I can slap something together in no time. Someone wanted a test station last month with a turntable and laser distance sensor: Once the little motor arrived a couple weeks later I had the controls on it and programmed within a week. If I had to build a whole traditional cabinet I'd still just be waiting on Saginaw.

ElectricalHammer said:

...With the 'master PLC', I just grab some Turck blocks that I keep stock on (one safety block for E-Stop, door, etc. and the rest are typical EIP)...

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What Turck blocks are you using for CIP safety? Do they just drop into the GuardLogix project and work? I would be very interested in that...

Steve Bailey said:

ElectricalHammer, I don't want you to think I'm second-guessing your decision, but I'd appreciate it if you would tell us how you balance concerns about a single point of failure against having enough of a PLC to be able to handle whatever you can throw at it from multiple stations.

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Haven't had a current gen PLC fail on me in a loooong time. I always keep recent backups & have a spare ready to go (I keep mine with a recent update too so I know firmware and comms are already set).

I suggested this architecture on projects at former employers going years back; at one integrator the customer had asked for a PLC in each station of a line of 8 so they could 'disconnect or move' certain stations around the facility and still remain 'functional'. The thing is, they also wanted full MES/SCADA where the part sequence for completing steps and reworks were all controlled through a central SQL database anyways, so everything is running through a single database and switch to the Corporate LAN. Add to that, if any single station goes down, the whole line was backed up anyways, so... writing all that redundant code for each station was a pain, and patches and updates to the SQL interface at each station meant connecting to each machine separately. Each SQL connection as well that had to make queries and update info and deal with all that traffic on the network... all that network buggy **** that is really a pain for an integrator to help a customer troubleshoot. I suggested that in hindsight, we should have just had one big boy PLC where we could just use a local database that would just update once every hour rather than every transaction, and each station could probably just run off IO blocks and those Banner SC10-2ROE controllers (EthernetIP back to the main PLC). The customer liked this idea and that's what we did on all the lines we made since. Oh, it was so awesome for us to program, keep maintained, etc. Need to update an AOI or EDS file? Do it once one one PLC, not running around repeating it 8 times! We ended up keeping a local database in the PLC that meant way less network traffic and 'glitches'. It would run a database update every 24 hours or if a special button was pressed on the HMI.

At my current company, I was informed upon hire that they intend on implementing some MES and SCADA systems but details on what or when, but I can tell you that these simple little PLC's that they've been using here and there won't support much anything without even the ability to have an ethernet connection. That plus seeing all these small stations that only consisted of 2 or 3 different devices making it hard to justify a whole control cabinet is what led to this. Sure, its a $25k master cabinet (PLC, a couple 716TX switches, an IPC, Hope Industrial monitor, and Puls field power on the back so not even 120Vac in the cabinet) but each 'station' that I add on doesn't need much more than a local power supply, a M12 ethernet switch, some IO blocks, and an HMI.

joseph_e2 said:

What Turck blocks are you using for CIP safety? Do they just drop into the GuardLogix project and work? I would be very interested in that...

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https://www.turck.us/en/productgroup/Fieldbus Technology/Block I／O

Select CIP Safety via EthernetI/P under the Fieldbus protocol. AB Armorblock is of course the $1800 original, and Balluff has similar. These have IO Link as well. I want to say I got those Turck safety blocks for something like $800 each because I bought a bunch along with the regular IO blocks for a lot less. I think they are normally like $1200. They need an EDS file but that's about it.

There's one machine I had to do a retrofit for safety because the in-house guys totally hosed up safety before I got here. I ended up putting one of those Banner SC10-2ROE controllers inside a small box, one 7/8" cable/bulkhead for power from the main cabinet, a RJ45-M12 pass through for Ethernet, and a bunch of M12 pass-through bulkheads... had to add safety (E-Etops, Gate Switch, Reset PB in, a couple air dumps for MFC valves and hard-wire signals for a Fanuc out) to a control cabinet with 0% spare space. An IP67 rated (M12) SC10-2ROE would be on my shopping list for some machines where I need local safety relays with EthernetIP reporting back to the PLC if Banner ever makes it.

ElectricalHammer: I'll definitely be checking those out...if we can ever get our hands on a 5069 Compact GuardLogix, that is...


I have a few machines to upgrade that will be a lot easier if I can have the safety I/O "out there" instead of packed into the box.