AD DL06 programming help

That is a great idea, but it's not that easy. Most of our windows are custom order, so the size varies greatly. We only run amounts of same size windows on commercial and stock orders, and the stock orders are usually run in the winter.

Acutally it is that easy. You have an order for a single window of of a particular odd-ball size, so you punch in the size and it automatically cuts all the peices for that size window. It's a matter of programming the code.

Given the fact that the structural vinyl for all windows your going to make is the same, the cut dimensions inrelation to the window size are all going to be the same. This is a constant that would be used in your PLC program equation to calculate the cut lengths. The operator inputs the window size and how many windwos and presses START...wham wham wham it's done.

Lets say you have 5 windows of one size 3 of another and 2 of another. The operator inputs all of the window sizes and quantaies, the PLC figures it all out and goes to work. 10 minutes later it's all done. Glaze the frames and snap in your strips.
 
elevmike said:
The punches are not inline with the same track. It seems that the material will have to pass through one track for a right miter, then be reloaded and passed again for a left miter.

Each miter punch takes out a slug that has the right and left miter and each notch completed in a single process. Hence the reason for a trim cut to make the first miter. The operator cuts 2 mirror peices (ie. RH & LH) at the same time.

elevmike said:
In my expierance, there is always a way to autofeed material such as this. It might not seem so easy, but if I had a sample of the stock I'm 99.9% sure that we could design an autofeed system for it. Plyability, length and warpage does not necessarly preclude the ability to oriantate and feed the material from an accumulator of some sort.

I would be glad to send you some samples. Feel free to PM me your address. I'll send some of the mitered ends too so you can visualize what I'm describing.
 
Each miter punch takes out a slug that has the right and left miter and each notch completed in a single process. Hence the reason for a trim cut to make the first miter. The operator cuts 2 mirror peices (ie. RH & LH) at the same time.

I would advise aganst attempting to cut two mirrored pecies with one drive and measure unit, as there will be some slip, and the slip on both will/may not be equal. You can use a small operator interface to tell the unit how many of which size to cut, and it will cut all the peices from one track feed. This will provide for more accurate cutting lengths.
 
elevmike said:
Acutally it is that easy. You have an order for a single window of of a particular odd-ball size, so you punch in the size and it automatically cuts all the peices for that size window. It's a matter of programming the code.

I'll explain how it works as we do it now:
The window orders are generated by computer, and sorted according to customer # and job #.
The cut lists are sent to a computer at the workstation which is hooked up to an automated stop.
The operator loads the cut list for that batch, and the computer tells the stop what length to go to. The operator then only has to hit the space bar on the computer to advance to the next cut size.
The operator feeds the material into the punch, trim cuts, then pushes the material to the stop, and cuts the material.
The operator removes the cut pieces and places them in the appropriate slot in a cart for transfer to the assembly line.

95% of the time the operator only cuts one size, then the next window is a different size. He needs to be there to sort them to the right bin. I think that building something to do the sorting is beyond the capability (and budget;) ) of my shop at this time. I'll have to look at doing that in the future .
What I'm trying to accomplish with this project is to remove the autmated stop, because inaccuracies are introduced by the operator pushing the material against the stop. The material can bow, or sometimes he has one peice against the stop and the other isn't, etc. I would like to speed up the process a bit, also.
I am looking for the computer to tell the controller what length to go to, just as it does the stop.


elevmike said:
Given the fact that the structural vinyl for all windows your going to make is the same, the cut dimensions inrelation to the window size are all going to be the same. This is a constant that would be used in your PLC program equation to calculate the cut lengths. The operator inputs the window size and how many windwos and presses START...wham wham wham it's done.

The cut sizes are already figured out by the window software upon order entry. It sends a list in ASCII to the computer at the workstation. The only time an operator has to enter a size is on a recut. That is maybe 5 pieces a day. I have not figured a display panel into this because everything can be done on the computer.

I see where you are going with this, Mike, and I think it's a great idea! (y) But if we attempt that I'll have to do it in stages. I am slowly showing my company that we are capable of doing these projects and saving maney by doing so. After this project is comleted I think they will be much more inclined for the larger undertakings.
 
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Ok so I'm getting the picture. Here's my take.

The order is in the PC and the PLC will cut to whatever lengths are required by the length info comming from the PC. No problem.

So going back to the mechanics of the shear, the miter blades are in the form of a V so it cuts both left and right miters.

Just to note; usually the frames are mitered, but the glazing strips are streight cut. From the pics you posted it seems that this machine is only cutting the glazing strips.

This is the problem. Your are going to have a great deal of diffuculty accurately cutting two or more lengths with one stroke of the shear. In order to do so you will need a seperate/independent drive and feedback for each length. There goes your budget (maybe?). If you attempt to do so you will also bust the budget and end up going back to one stroke = one cut anyway. Consider it this way. If done properly the compleated machine will chop up a full lenth of stock in just a few seconds. It's likely if the operator is manually loading two lenghts then running around to the other end and seperating them etc.. he will have a diffucult time keeping up with the machine anyway. So cutting from two lengths of stock actually might not be any more productive then cutting from one length.

Sorting final cuts:

All you need here is a single axis robot to grip the cart on two points and position the approperate bin under the outfeed from the shear. That way the operator can focus on the feeding.

I am slowly showing my company that we are capable of doing these projects and saving maney by doing so. After this project is comleted I think they will be much more inclined for the larger undertakings.

Some people are skiddish about the cost of increasing efficency, and only view the cost of M & E at the same time discounting the lack of productivity & on going cost of labor issues. The problem is by the time they come around they've alrealy thou$and$ of what could have been increased profits otherwise; often way way more then they would have spent in the begining. I see it all the time. 20 years ago it used to be frustrating. Not any more....
 
I agree with your reasoning, Mike. That will be the next generation of machine, I think. It will be easier to build from scratch than trying to retro this. Management wants me to work with the punch that I have for now.

Here is what my techs and I have come up with:
We are planning to split the drive rollers and add another stepper to the drive assembly. We are going to do the same with the encoder and idler wheels that we are adding. Each drive assembly will push one part at a time. This way we can monitor any slip between parts. Do you think that this would work?

I am suprised that you recognized the part as a glazing stop. You must have worked in the industy before. Most window companies do leave the glazing stop square. Ours is mitered only on the heights for a cleaner appearance. I'll take a picture for you the next time that I have the camera out so that you can see the difference.

We have the feed removed from the punch assembly and are going to start the mods next week. It has a priority but production needs come first, so it may be a bit before we get it put back together.

I can push the budget on this a bit and thy are supportive on thins project, but I think after I get this going I'll be free to make the next project really rock!(y)

Have a great weekend!
:site:
 
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ThermoT said:
I agree with your reasoning, Mike. That will be the next generation of machine, I think. It will be easier to build from scratch than trying to retro this. Management wants me to work with the punch that I have for now.

That's the problem. This is a production issue, and there's a lack of proper planning & applying enginering economics. Must be a small shop.


ThermoT said:
Here is what my techs and I have come up with:
We are planning to split the drive rollers and add another stepper to the drive assembly. We are going to do the same with the encoder and idler wheels that we are adding. Each drive assembly will push one part at a time. This way we can monitor any slip between parts. Do you think that this would work?

You will need to drive and measure each peice individually, but that can be done simultaneously. Keep in mind that this is closed loop and you will need another counter module. Once both lenths are in position to cut, then one stoke of the shear will cut them both.

ThermoT said:
I am suprised that you recognized the part as a glazing stop. You must have worked in the industy before. Most window companies do leave the glazing stop square. Ours is mitered only on the heights for a cleaner appearance. I'll take a picture for you the next time that I have the camera out so that you can see the difference.

Some years ago I did a consulting job on an assembly process layout for a window shop. Others did the actual tooling, but it worked out well for everybody, including me.

ThermoT said:
We have the feed removed from the punch assembly and are going to start the mods next week. It has a priority but production needs come first, so it may be a bit before we get it put back together.

I can push the budget on this a bit and thy are supportive on thins project, but I think after I get this going I'll be free to make the next project really rock!

That's the thing. Once you show you know your stuff, management ususally lets you run. But before then, it's a hard sell and a lot of small steps down a long road...
 
How I would have designed the concept...

I would have designed this so that all of the pieces around the window are made at essentially the same time. That is, all pieces would be developed in a single pass. Each of the four lines would have a forward-mitre, a backward-mitre and a straight-cut. (I'll explain later how each is selected.)


TRANSFER POSITIONS
LINE A B C D

Left-Side -- / ----- \ ----- | --->


Right-Side -- \ ----- / ----- | --->


Upper-Side -- / ----- \ ----- | --->


Lower-Side -- \ ----- / ----- | --->


.
One drive for the left/right sides, and one drive for the upper/lower sides.

Raw stock is driven by a knurled wheel made of hardened steel; one (maybe two) under each line. ("knurled" is not the right word for what I'm thinking of... I'm thinking of sharp teeth.)

Positive friction is developed by applying pressure with the rollers on the upper side of the piece. The knurled wheel should be in contact with the blind-side of the piece.

Individual clamps for each of the four lines. When a piece arrives at the appropriate mark, the clamp for that piece closes, and the upper roller is raised from that piece.

Because you indicated that some of the dimensions might be slightly different (this is especially true in retro-fits) you need to be able to make a slight offset adjustment to one piece or the other. Because you have the measurents, the program can calculate the difference. Once both pieces arrive at the minimum mark, close the clamp on the shorter piece and raise the upper roller on that piece. Then inch the other piece forward to the appropriate position. The clamped piece doesn't move. Then close that clamp. Lower the roller that you raised, then make the cut. When the cut is done you are ready to move to the next cut.

The left-hand piece and the right-hand piece are made from the same raw stock. The thing that makes one a left-hand piece and the other a right-hand piece is the particular mitre-cuts that are made relative to the shape of the channeling.

If there are no mitre-cuts then there is no difference between the two.

Now, it might be the case that all four pieces around the window use the same raw stock. Or, the upper and lower pieces might be different from the side pieces (which are from the same raw stock), and the upper and lower pieces might even be different from each other. Additionally, some designs might call for straight-cuts, or mitre-cuts, or a combination of both.

All of that was only for the purpose of describing all of the possibilities.

Now, as far as accomplishing the goal in a single pass...

Just for the sake of example, let's assume that all of the pieces use the same raw stock, and that all joints are mitred, and that there is no offset in the dimensions of any pair of pieces.

(The following describes making the cuts with only two lines. It could just as well be done using all four lines in half the time.)

Two pieces are loaded up to some appropriate start position and then the process is started.

Both pieces move in together up to some predetermined mark for the first cut. One piece receives a forward-mitre-cut, the other receives a backward-mitre-cut.

Both pieces move in together up to the next cut-mark. Now the complementary mitres are made.

These might be either the sides or the upper/lower pieces. In either case, these pieces are done. They can be removed by hand or they will be ejected when the raw stock pieces are advanced.

Both pieces of the remaining raw stock move in just a bit for the next cut. After the cut is made, the small pieces of material just ahead of the cuts are waste. They will be pushed out when the stock advances.

Then the stock advances for the final cuts.

The same type of scheme applies if the upper and lower pieces are different from the sides, and possibly each other.

All of the pieces start at the appropriate position. They all move ahead to the appropriate position for the initial cut. <== This position is determined by the particular cut - more later.

After the initial cut, the left/right side drive brings the stock to the next cut-mark. The clamps close.
Meanwhile, the upper/lower drive brings those pieces to the next cut-mark. Those clamps close.

The punch cycles. All four cuts are made at the same time. The clamps release and the stock advances to the next position.


Now, as far as controlling which cut is selected... and doing so with a single press...

There is a technique in punching where particular punches are selected for use in a single punch-die operation. The die contains all of the punches, but only the selected one(s) is(are) used.

I can't remember if I'm using the correct terminology... so I'll just call it a "transfer". In software parlance the effect would be called a mask. In this case it is not a filtering-mask as much as a selecting-mask.

The "transfer" mechanism can be designed to select individual punches or patterns of punches.

Anyway, it works like this...
The transfer has a "neutral-position". While in that position, the press can cycle all day long without actually performing a single punch-cycle. If you then place the transfer over a particular punch, then, when the press cycles, that punch cycles.

First...
There are two transfers; one associated with the left/right sides, and one with the upper/lower sides. The cut patterns are configured to provide complementary cuts.

In the figure below, Position-B is the neutral-position.

If you need to use the cut patterns under "A" for the left/right side, then the associated transfer is shifted to Position-A.

At the same time, you might need to use the straight-cut for the upper/lower sides. In that case, that transfer is shifted to Position-D.

When the press cycles, the left/right sides are punched according to the cut pattern under "A". The upper/lower sides are punched according to the pattern under "D".

LEFT/RIGHT
TRANSFER POSITIONS

LINE (A) B C D

Left-Side --(/)----- \ ----- | --->


Right-Side --(\)----- / ----- | --->


Upper-Side -- / ----- \ -----(|)--->


Lower-Side -- \ ----- / -----(|)--->

LINE A B C (D)

UPPER/LOWER
TRANSFER POSITIONS



.
Now, what this means is that when you advance the stock to the next cut position, you need to advance it relative to the particular cut-pattern. You need to know the distances between the punches so that the program can make the appropriate adjustment.

Of course, all of this would mean a complete re-build of your system.

However, in terms of moving the material accurately in your current system, I believe that the knurled drive wheel would serve you best. And leave the encoders on the drives. I sure hope that your drive shaft is geared way down... so that it takes many motor turns to develop a single drive-wheel turn. Since you said that speed is not an issue, the more motor-turns the better.

And make damned sure that you use appropriate ramping to counter the inertial effects.


Mike,

Simply add an "r" to "late" to make "later".
You "r" late 'cuz you showed up "later".
"Latter" is the opposite of "former", as in previous.

Think of "pie" when you write "piece"... as in piece of pie.
 
Good Afternoon Everyone!
I apologize about not posting here in the last couple of days, I have been catching up on my other duties.
Terry; Thanks for the great post! That is a really good idea you have there, an I think it would be perfect for some other cutting projects that I have to do later, but I think it is a little too complex for what I am trying to accomplish. I am going to look at that and let you know.

Mike; I already figured that I would need another CTRIO to run the second stepper and encoder, but would I need another stepper power supply, or would one be enough? I'll need to get a bigger cabinet for the extra items. I hope they don't take the budget overruns out of my pay!! :eek:

I have a meeting later this week to update the mgmt on this project. I'll present some of the ideas that have come from here and see what they will approve.
I am going to do a couple of drawings on what I am planning on the design and I'll see if I can get them posted on here to see what you all think.

Thanks again for all the help!
 
"I already figured that I would need another CTRIO to run the second stepper and encoder, but would I need another stepper power supply, or would one be enough?"

I would suggest a power supplies for each stepper system.

Regarding the CTRIO module, I just wanted to make sure you were aware that the on-board hi-speed inputs and pulse outputs cannot be used for a closed loop system.
 
Thermo said...
"I have a meeting later this week to update the mgmt on this project. I'll present some of the ideas that have come from here and see what they will approve."

You gotta know...

First of all, your current manual method is working... as slow as it might be, it is, and has been working.

Now, if you come in with a half-baked idea that is only slightly better... and if that half-baked idea works at all, as far as management is concerned, it becomes "gospel"!

Then, you have to suffer under that half-baked idea for some extended duration through the future. Once "solved", as far as management is concerned, the problem is closed!

All the time, you are sitting on a truely better idea.

It has been said that it is much easier to apologize for having done "something" than it is to ask for permission to do that "something"! Especially if that "something" turns out to make more money than the previous half-baked idea.

And if you really think about it, this project uses no more than pocket-change, no more than beer-money (SHUDDER - I hate to lose my beer money!).

Just food for thought.

What is the sense in spending a buck to save a penny?
 

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