winder and rewinder without loop...

puxiret

Member
Join Date
Mar 2007
Location
Portugal
Posts
18
Hi programmers,
I´m still new in this world of plc, and already appeared the first difficulty.

The customer wants to winder and rewinder
directly from the conveyor without Loop.

You can see in the picture what I want.

I can buy encoder or ultra sonic sensor for the diameter if i need.

I only want to now the right way to do this and if you have some example it was thankful.
icon12.gif


Kind Reagards,
José Cruz
 
Speeds, max diameter, tension levels, accel/decel rates, friction between material and conveyor...... give details please.
 
Hello puxiret;

Please also give details on material being wound/unwound. When you say:

The customer wants to winder and rewinder
directly from the conveyor without Loop.

Do you mean without a dancer system (tension-maintaning loop) or do you mean without feedback (tension/diameter/speed)?


Hope this helps,
Daniel Chartier
 
Thanks L D[AR2,P#0.0] and dchartier ,
icon14.gif


Where is more details:

Speeds: 5 m/min to 40 m/min I can change
Max Diameter: 2m
Min Diameter: 0,1m
Material: textil
Tension Levels: zero if it possible

accel/decel rates: What you decide for the best performance.

friction between material and conveyor: for now they want zero friction but in the future they want to change.

When I say without loop I mean I don´t have space between conveyor and roll for dancer system.

edited:
I have two AC motors and two drivers if you need to now that.


thanks,
PuxiRet
 
Last edited:
You are not going to do that with a PLC. You will need a motion controller that can change gear ratios on-the-fly as the diameter of the material on the wind and unwind changes. The gear ratio needs to change continuously. Even with the best calculations there will be some error because the material thickness will not be that consistent so it would be best if there was some tension to keep the material on the winding spool tight.

The two AC motors and drivers may not be good enough for precise motion control like this application requires.

There are websites that describe how this is done. There are more mathematical methods that just calculate the one winders position as a function of the other but these equations assume you know the thickness at all times.
http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Ie_ias03/IAS4p5s.html
 
Hi Peter,
It is not possible to do this with a PLC?

Can I use two AC motors and drivers with one motion controller ? if it ispossible can you suggest one type of that?

If you now the best way I can talk to my boss about that.

Best Regards,
PuxiRet
 
Instead of speed-control, you may want to consider torque-control. This sounds like a fairly typical web-control system that's found in large printing presses.
 
puxiret said:
Hi Peter,
It is not possible to do this with a PLC?

Can I use two AC motors and drivers with one motion controller ? if it ispossible can you suggest one type of that?

If you now the best way I can talk to my boss about that.

Best Regards,
PuxiRet

A PLC may be involved in the project, but not for the drive synchronization. That is best left to the drives themselves.

And for the control that I think you're going to need, you will probably need servos instead of AC motors.

How large are the rolls?
 
more details..

OZEE:
The roll as 0,1 meter diameter and 2 meter long width.


In attach you can see two drawings about the system that I have and the new that I want.
The drawings is it only to understand better what I want.
 
I hate to speak for Peter but he may have intended to link to this paper:

http://www.apicsllc.com/apics/Ie_cdc01/Ie_cdc01.htm

The equations talked about in Peter's link are pretty standard fair for most decent winders. The stuff talked about in the link I posted is quite a bit more advanced. As a side note, I think the guys at apICS performed the anbalysis and wrote the pseudocode for the Allen-Bradley plc based winder function in the PLC5. I think they also helped with the AB 1336 Impact and Force auto-tune function.

I always react a little bit when people say that projects like this can't be done in a plc. We put men on the moon with less processing power than you have in your calculator. At the speeds you are running you should be able to easily keep up with roll build in a plc. I've done both low speed and high speed winding with nothing more than a plc. However, if you haven't done this before you are probably better off using a more purpose built tool for the job. Motion controllers have built-in tools to handle axis synchonization much better than most plcs. Your implementation and deployment would be much faster with a motion controller.

I don't necessarily think you need to go with servomotors on this job from a performance standpoint. However, you will need to use high quality AC drives in this application. A standard volt/hertz inverter won't have the capability to do what you want. The funny thing is that when you size this the servomotor system may be about the same price as a good AC drive system.

I do agree that you need to wind under some tension. If you don't wind with some minimum amount of web strain you will end up with a roll that is too soft to do anything with. It will act like multiple sheets of material hung over a bar. See if you can fit a load cell roll between the conveyor and the winder. Since you want to wind at a low tension and at a low speed you can probably get away with a small idler roll. Just make sure if you use a load cell roll that the angle of wrap around the load cell roll doesn't change with roll diameter.

You need to make sure you have a good web speed reference for your winder. That will help alot with staying on tension.

I don't think that a torque based system will work well in this case unless you up-size the motor quite a bit. At the speeds you are running the gear ratios will be fairly high if you size the motor to the load. High gear ratios will prevent you from separating the torque losses in the drivetrain from the torque required for tension. Torque control works best for very high tensions or very low gear ratios.

Good luck.
Keith
 
kamenges,:

Thanks for your help, I will study better this situation.
It is my first project with winders and rewinders like this.
If you have some examples about this it will be usefull for me.

Best Regards
Puxiret
 
puxiret said:
P.S.:

For this project I will use Beckhoff TwinCat with cx1100 plc.

Within 8 hours you stated that you were new to PLCs and asked how to go about building a winder, to making choices for the PLC & drives.

It seems as if you have chosen your hardware before you have thoroughly analyzed the needs of the project. If you are going to make feta cheese, then you might not want to buy a cow just because you know you will need "milk".

This is not a project for the faint of heart. I would suggest that you not purchase anything until you have done some research and have a much better plan in place.

You could do this winder with a PLC, just as you could drive a nail with a rock. But I think the nail will be driven much easier with a hammer... and the winder might go much better with a motion controller.
 
elevmike:
Above you can see that I already have the system but in surface winder, what I want is to change to centerwind.

I will try to do this with PLC, if I don´t have results I know that I can use Movidrive from SEW.
 
Talk to your AC drive supplier. many drives have "canned" drive applications that calculate the diameter. I like SSD drives Good phone support http://www.ssddrives.com

Do as much of the tension control in the drive. Update times are faster and as I said many drives have built in PID loops and other calcultions you will need

You can close the loop without material contact using an ultra sonic sensor measuring a loop in the material or something similar. Closing the loop will make you life easier and a better running winder.
 

Similar Topics

Hi All… I work for a company that makes bags. Operators of the machines that make the bags need to take the bags from a cardboard box that the...
Replies
10
Views
1,749
Hello Folks, This is the design idea of a hydrogel coater that I am working on. Unwind>>Coat hydrogel>>Rewind Spces: 300mm wide web. 6000mm...
Replies
13
Views
4,352
Hi everyone does anybody got by chance the electrical drawing of Arpeco - Tracker / Slitter / Rewinder machine? thanks for your help
Replies
0
Views
1,556
I have an application where I want to decel the slitter/rewinder at a calculated preset and stop at a predetermined footage setpoint. The machine...
Replies
9
Views
3,557
Hello and Happy Holidays One of our customers is upgrading a winding machine that has seen better days. The machine is currently equipped with 2...
Replies
36
Views
14,708
Back
Top Bottom