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Old December 19th, 2017, 07:24 PM   #1
Maintenance Man
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Going from 500 to 5000

Hi to all,
I have a good understanding for RsLogix 500 and would like to know the best way to start learning RsLogix 5000. I would appreciate help to let me know the best way to start learning RsLogix 5000. Thank you for your help in advance.

I appreciate it very much.

Maintenance
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Old December 19th, 2017, 08:33 PM   #2
daba
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Key points....

The ladder program looks much the same, some new instructions to learn, some instructions lost, but about 99% will be understandable.

Probably the biggest hurdle to overcome is how your data is stored.

Logix5000 doesn't have "data tables", where your data is stored in elements of data files, e.g. N7:23 Instead, it has a pukka "tag database" (actually it has more than one, you will learn later). Your data is stored in the database(s) with names you define, so the tag-name can be as descriptive as you want it to be (up to an 80 character limit). That can be a large part of your "documentation", making the ladder easier to read and understand.

All the old favourite data types are supported, plus a few new ones that weren't available in Logix500, but some have been renamed to comply with IEC standards....

BOOL (was bit) - a memory storage for a single bit, 0 or 1
SINT (never existed) - 8-bit memory storage for numbers -128 to +127
INT (probably most familiar) - 16-bit memory storage for numbers -32768 to +32767
DINT (new to you) - 32-bit memory storage for numbers -2,147,483,648 to +2,147,483,647
REAL (was called Float) - 32-bit memory storage for floating point numbers +/-10^+/-38

Get your head round those 5 "Atomic" data-types, everything else you will see are "collections" or "structures" of those atomic types. You can even create your own data structures, called UDTs (User-Definable Types) - very convenient.

I had a "good understanding" of Logix5 and Logix500 when I was abruptly introduced to Logix5000, and I found the transition quite painless.
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Old December 19th, 2017, 09:42 PM   #3
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Take some time to research the AOI instruction. That was the one thing that really tripped me up going from 500 to 5K. The help file for the instruction is a good place to start, then when you are having a hard time sleeping, give this a read. http://literature.rockwellautomation...m010_-en-p.pdf
The other thing that was hard for me to wrap my head around, but is crucial to understand is the UDT (User Defined Data Type). They are very popular with programmers and engineers, but can be a bit confusing when you first encounter one. All in all, the transition is not too hard, and you will find that in time 5K is actually much easier to work with at the maintenance level.

Have fun!
Bubba.
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Old December 19th, 2017, 09:49 PM   #4
thingstodo
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Maintenance Man View Post
Hi to all,
I have a good understanding for RsLogix 500 and would like to know the best way to start learning RsLogix 5000. I would appreciate help to let me know the best way to start learning RsLogix 5000. Thank you for your help in advance.

I appreciate it very much.

Maintenance
Agree with @Daba on data types

The ladder logic will be familiar. Logix has SFC, Structured text, and function block as well. They are each suited to different types of programming, depending on how you think when you program. They are IEC languages and there are lots of books on how to program with them.

As @willxfmr mentioned, another big thing is Add-On Instructions.

You make a subroutine, sort of like in a micrologix or a SLC. But the subroutine is called an AOI and you can define a local data structure that holds all of the information that is useful, and you can pass in tags and get tags back out, like making your own function block.

When you re-use some good ladder logic in a SLC, you normally have to make sure that there are timers, and counters, and integers, at specific addresses, that are available to be used. Or you need to change your old code to use different addresses and it sometimes causes it to stop working.

With the AOI, you don't need 'global' variables to pass stuff in and out. And you don't have to worry about passing in the wrong number of parameters and fault you PLC. You don't need to change anything. You call the AOI, send in tags of the correct type for your code, and your code just WORKS!

Ahh ... if ONLY you could change the code in an AOI without going offline, downloading to the PLC ... that would be truly AWESOME ... but I am talking about your journey, not mine Sorry about that !

I think the UDT is sort of like the data part of the AOI without the code. But that's just my interpretation

Last edited by thingstodo; December 19th, 2017 at 09:51 PM. Reason: Correct spelling and typos!
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Old December 19th, 2017, 09:55 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by thingstodo View Post

Ahh ... if ONLY you could change the code in an AOI without going offline, downloading to the PLC ... that would be truly AWESOME
AOI's cannot be changed online for many reasons. Usually the AOI is well-defined, well-tested, and "certified" before it is employed. Rockwell don't let you change the execution of their instructions, so why should you be able to change an AOI online. Way too dangerous if you get it wrong (incorrect, George)
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Old December 20th, 2017, 07:49 AM   #6
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Quote:
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Way too dangerous if you get it wrong (incorrect, George)
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Old December 20th, 2017, 07:51 AM   #7
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I hate that they got rid of the SCP instruction, but once you have the AOI it's no different. Just wish when you had the AOI installed, it would convert the old SCPs into the new SCPs when running the auto conversion instead of making them into long nonsensical CPT statements instead.
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Old December 20th, 2017, 08:07 AM   #8
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One other big change is that I/O in the Logix family updates asynchronously to the program scan. For this reason, it is advised to buffer your inputs (at least) in order to get the same response as you had with the SLC.
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Old December 20th, 2017, 08:29 AM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daba View Post
AOI's cannot be changed online for many reasons. Usually the AOI is well-defined, well-tested, and "certified" before it is employed. Rockwell don't let you change the execution of their instructions, so why should you be able to change an AOI online. Way too dangerous if you get it wrong (incorrect, George)
I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

Or maybe you are kidding and I don't know you well enough? If you were kidding - ignore the rest of this message!

I have 'typical' motor and valve subroutines spread across 10 ControlLogix. The structures are all the same. The code is all the same. When I find some fringe condition that breaks my logic, I move to my offline system, make the changes required, test it, then copy the code to the affected ControlLogix and log the change. A simple checklist keeps track of where it has been deployed and where I still need to deploy it. It usually takes a couple of days to get it onto all of the ControlLogix in between other tasks. The 'typical' simple motor subroutine controls 450 motors across those 10 ControlLogix

I guess I could copy the AOI to a new name, and change several (450) AOI calls to accomplish the same thing with AOI. AOIs import much nicer. But I run a continuous process. There is usually 1 day a year (sometimes 2) that I can shut down all of the ControlLogix at the same time and change the AOI without changing the name. And I need that 1 day to do other stuff, like patching network switches, maintaining standby power, etc. Editing AOI online is definitely on my wish list
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Old December 20th, 2017, 10:00 AM   #10
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From my understanding, the point of AOIs is to segregate areas of the logic that shouldn't ever NEED to be edited. They are used to black box and/or protect. If you are finding that you often have to edit AOIs, you should probably have that logic as a subroutine or scheduled task instead of an AOI imo.
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Old December 20th, 2017, 10:38 AM   #11
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From my understanding, the point of AOIs is to segregate areas of the logic that shouldn't ever NEED to be edited. They are used to black box and/or protect. If you are finding that you often have to edit AOIs, you should probably have that logic as a subroutine or scheduled task instead of an AOI imo.
Hmm. The Rockwell sales guys always seem disappointed when I tell them that I have not 'converted' to AOIs.

I get the impression that they think subroutines are 'old-fashioned' and 'obsolete'.

It is easier to document how to add a new motor if you just create a new instance of an AOI. Using a subroutine requires changing tags in a subroutine call .. and using the wrong number of parameters (simply typos) cause the ControlLogix to fault

We started with version 1 of our motor logic in 2003. We are up to version 8 now, with several a,b,c minor revisions between. The valves are more varied. We started with about a dozen different types and are down to 5 different types now, 1 or 2 limits, spring return or double-acting, etc.

Not sure if that counts as often?

IS there EVER code that should NEVER change? In my world, nothing that is still used is EVER done
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Old December 20th, 2017, 12:18 PM   #12
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Quote:
Originally Posted by daba
...Way too dangerous if you get it wrong (incorrect, George)
Hehe. Now that's just silly. "it" implies you are referring to the task of manipulating an AOI online and not the person per se. So your statement is perfectly fine here as it implies more a potentially wrong task. You could have alternatively said "...Way too dangerous if you were to incorrectly edit an AOI online..." or similar. But that's just me being fancy. Nope, you haven't even offended me here.

At least I've got you thinking about it now 😉

On the subject of Add-On Instructions - don't forget that you can perform a Partial Import Online (PIO) since v17. This allows you to replace an existing AOI with a new offline edited AOI which may simply contain the update you require. Caveats - you cannot use the same name and you cannot online delete the existing AOI. At least not the last time I tried - v28.

I'm sure these topics are of interest to the OP but I'm wondering if this is jumping ahead too quickly here? Perhaps not?

Regards,
George
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Old December 20th, 2017, 04:24 PM   #13
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Thank you to all.

Thank you so very much for all the great information. I appreciate it very much.
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Old December 21st, 2017, 07:54 AM   #14
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I was thrown into 5000 a couple of years ago. I had no idea where to even start writing a program in it, so I went to youtube. I learned about the data files, how to create tags, and how to buffer the inputs to make them synchronous. After that I started programming and learned the software as I went, either from the help files or youtube.
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Old December 21st, 2017, 10:46 AM   #15
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A small observation...
Quote:
Originally Posted by T Gibbs
...I learned about the data files, how to create tags, and how to buffer the inputs to make them synchronous...
For "5000", I think you meant "Data Types" here?
(BOOL, INT, DINT, REAL, STRING, etc.)

"Data Files" would be the reserve of "500".
(B3, T4, C5, R6, N7, F8, etc.)

Regards,
George
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