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Old December 30th, 2017, 11:43 PM   #1
Ih8Siemens
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Itís been a long day Firmware Rev 21.03

Hey all,
Been lurking on the site for awhile and a Day has come where I need some help. Pretty sure I know the deal but I have a 1756-L71 with a program on it that a client needs BAD. Before I have to break the bad news to him (since the client ran off the programming company for this salt water site and doesnít have an original copy) and I am pretty sure they put the last copy on utilizing .03 thus making it impossible to pull from the controller without the original file. Has anyone found a work around or a way to get files off of controllers with that 21.03?
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Old December 31st, 2017, 02:44 AM   #2
BobB
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I really seriously do not understand this rubbish where you have to have the original program. Thought this basically went out in the nineties. Omron have never done this - always the latest version of the software will work with all firmware and software revisions and allow you to upload provided the program is not password protected. I hope there is a way around for you that someone knows. I feel your pain.
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Old December 31st, 2017, 03:09 AM   #3
stu
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I thought rslogix 5000 is all tag names so if you uploaded the program it will have the text on the input/output ?
Have you tried uploading the program?
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Old December 31st, 2017, 05:19 AM   #4
Ih8Siemens
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Besides the fact that I just got done troubleshooting an entire saltwater dispsoal site thatís being run by a floboss(total flow equivalent), this really put the icing on the cake for my night (and a rio panel losing power and resorting back to bootP) 8am - 4am heading home now but the client refuses to upgrade firmware on controller. I explained to him that the time I was there I could have had the whole thing done but he is not an automation guy and refuses to move forward with technology (I am sure everyone whoís is a member here knows the type). So he is having a talk with some higher ups but regardless they absolutely need that program to extract certain data. I explained to him that I can get everything he needs from the devices themselves but there is no level of understanding.
If anyone happens to know a truck let me know please!
I did find a way to extract the program through some less than approved methods but it comes back as machine code, so if anyone has an idea how to convert that it would be awesome.
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Old December 31st, 2017, 05:23 AM   #5
Ih8Siemens
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Quote:
Originally Posted by stu View Post
I thought rslogix 5000 is all tag names so if you uploaded the program it will have the text on the input/output ?
Have you tried uploading the program?
With the help of 6 VMís and every version of 20/21 you could imagine. (My hotspot took a beating today) I can access the data monitor so I can see whatís there for tags but no logic. I am tying to bring in 2 flowmeter for them and I can see them populate in the data monitor and I thought I would just tag the flow directly from hmi but they have a few calculations based off flow that wouldnít populate if I did that, with that they also have a few shutdown conditions based off those calculations and I will not be the programmer to force values. The way I see it itís on them now, but I would love to make there day by being able to get this ******* off of there.
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Old December 31st, 2017, 05:29 AM   #6
Ih8Siemens
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BobB View Post
I really seriously do not understand this rubbish where you have to have the original program. Thought this basically went out in the nineties. Omron have never done this - always the latest version of the software will work with all firmware and software revisions and allow you to upload provided the program is not password protected. I hope there is a way around for you that someone knows. I feel your pain.
Side note: speaking of omron, do they have some sort of stand alone VFD equivalent to the PF525ís? Thought I worked on one a while back and didnít know a thing about it, but it took all of 5 mins to figure out. Awesome little drive but I do not remember who made it for the life of me.
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Old December 31st, 2017, 06:01 AM   #7
robw53
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I have never come across this issue before, and we have about a dousen processors still on V20.03.

Could it be the processor has security enabled and that is why you are struggling to get it uploaded?

Regards
Rob
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Old December 31st, 2017, 06:32 AM   #8
Ih8Siemens
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1.) I like the flex I/o in the comment haha
2.) no it’s not the Security, I read a tech note on RockwellKB and a release they had for the same problem I am having. Instead of a fix they just decided to let everyone know! Also, it’s 21.03.02 that is the main source of the problem, I am about to pass out closing the 22 hour 4 site shutdown filled day but if you are intrested I can send you the stuff I have in regards to the issue? If you’re using 20.03 it’ll definitely brought some knowledge my way (most of my sites are 24+ and this company is a white elephant to me)
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Old December 31st, 2017, 01:03 PM   #9
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Yes that info would be good if you could send it.

I'm looking to standardise all the logic 5000 processors to V30 as we have everything from V18, 19, 20.13, 20.03, two versions of 21, 24, 28 and some already on V30. We have ordered the L33-ER's to swap out the L32E currently running versions prior to Studio.



Rob
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Old December 31st, 2017, 04:14 PM   #10
Ken Roach
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Quote:
I read a tech note on RockwellKB and a release they had for the same problem I am having. Instead of a fix they just decided to let everyone know! Also, itís 21.03.02 that is the main source of the problem,
My guess is that you're referring to Knowledgebase document 724630 (TechConnect Required). If it's not, please post the Knowledgebase document number that you are commenting about.

What document 724630 describes is a situation where you can't upload from a CompactLogix controller with version 21.011 firmware if you have Studio 5000 version 21.00.00. The document is addressing a specific message with a specific set of software, rather than being a general document about the matter.

That was one manifestation of the transition from "non-resilient" to "resilient" firmware. Rockwell definitely made a mess of the documentation on the issue.

There is a more general explanation of the issue and how it manifested itself in RA Knowledgebase document 582891. As with many Internet sites, it's best for your blood pressure if you don't read the comments.

The solution today is to use the appropriate version of RSLogix 5000 / Studio 5000 that supports both resilient and non-resilient firmware controllers.

For a 1756-L71 controller with version 21.03 firmware, that would be Studio 5000 version 21.00.04.

I am reasonably confident in this compatibility, as I have a couple of systems in the field that I intentionally put 21.03 firmware on 1756-L71 controllers, and I installed and support the engineering workstations with Studio 5000 version 21.00.04.

If what's really going on is a Security feature like "OEM Lock" or other routine source code protection, that's a different matter. A customer who ruined their relationship with their integrator/programmer might also have ended up in a conflict over ownership and payment for the content of the controller.
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Old January 2nd, 2018, 09:24 AM   #11
Geospark
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Let us be "firm"ly a"ware" of this fact...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ih8Siemens
It’s been a long day Firmware Rev 21.03
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Roach
...The solution today is to use the appropriate version of RSLogix 5000 / Studio 5000 that supports both resilient and non-resilient firmware controllers.

For a 1756-L71 controller with version 21.03 firmware, that would be Studio 5000 version 21.00.04.

I am reasonably confident in this compatibility, as I have a couple of systems in the field that I intentionally put 21.03 firmware on 1756-L71 controllers...
The opening title has thrown us a "bum steer" here...
I'm reading a couple of misunderstandings to boot...
I have seen mention of the firmware in relation to the product resiliency releases before...

For those reason I feel is important to make this a bit clearer...

There is no special firmware involved in the product resiliency releases. There is no firmware revision "21.03". There is only revision 21.011. In fact, revision 21.011 is the only firmware available for controllers that support firmware revision 21, whether a resiliency project has been downloaded, or not. The product resiliency features are only related to the software version 21.03 (or 20.03) and are applied to the project file that is compiled and downloaded into the controller. The controller firmware is not involved in the application of, or protection of these features. They are applied offline in the software and then downloaded. Only the same software version offline can then interact with the project in the controller, whether to open it offline, go online, or upload, etc., because only this software version recognizes these features. Having the correct product resiliency version of the software should enable you to interact with a controller project that was previously downloaded using the same version...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ih8Siemens
...I am pretty sure they put the last copy on utilizing .03 thus making it impossible to pull from the controller without the original file...
The product resiliency features do not prevent a user from uploading without the offline project file. That is not its intended purpose. It just prevents a user with a non-resiliency version of software from interacting with it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ih8Siemens
...Has anyone found a work around or a way to get files off of controllers with that 21.03?
You use resiliency software version 21.03, or the latest fix version 21.00.04.

But, are you guessing or do you have any evidence, besides struggling to upload the project, that version 21.03 software was last used with this controller? Or version 21 anything?...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ih8Siemens
With the help of 6 VM’s and every version of 20/21 you could imagine.
I can imagine quite a lot. But how do you know what firmware the controller is currently using? We know it is not "21.03", but that is all. To be sure of the controller firmware revision, you can access its properties via an RSLinx Classic browse. If you know it to already be using firmware 21.011 (same as 21.11) then you don't need anything version 20 related, for instance (unless used during "other" extraction methods).

If you know it to be at revision 21.011...

What specific software versions have you installed and attempted an upload with? What were the results/errors?

If it was downloaded to using version 21.03 software and you attempt to upload using an ordinary software version, such as version 21.00, then you should get specific error messages. What messages have you been getting when you tried say version 21.00 software?

If you are using version 21.03 software, and you do not have the offline project file, then you can upload a resiliency downloaded project by creating a new file during upload. If it wasn't, and say it was downloaded using version 21.00, then version 21.03 would prompt you to convert the 21.00 project to 21.03. Of course you would not want to do that if it was not resiliency set to begin with.

...and so on...

I'm listing hypothetical scenarios here but really you need to provide this information to us with your actual results, or as best you remember if now offsite. We need specifics as to what errors you are seeing for various things you've tried. Us Bloodhounds thrive on specifics and error messages, you know!

If none of that gets you anywhere then there is still the other possibilities...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Roach
...If what's really going on is a Security feature like "OEM Lock" or other routine source code protection, that's a different matter. A customer who ruined their relationship with their integrator/programmer might also have ended up in a conflict over ownership and payment for the content of the controller.
Your issue might have nothing to do with product resiliency features and version 21.03 software, and more to do with the above.

The main aim here is to prevent you misunderstanding a resiliency feature that would then lead on to you believing that this feature must be what is providing the apparent security feature that is blocking you. If it is merely product resiliency set then this should not be preventing you from uploading the project file using the correct software version.

Regards,
George
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Last edited by Geospark; January 2nd, 2018 at 09:28 AM.
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