You are not registered yet. Please click here to register!


 
 
plc storereviewsdownloads
This board is for PLC Related Q&A ONLY. Please DON'T use it for advertising, etc.
 
Try our online PLC Simulator- FREE.  Click here now to try it.

---------->>>>>Get FREE PLC Programming Tips

New Here? Please read this important info!!!


Go Back   PLCS.net - Interactive Q & A > PLCS.net - Interactive Q & A > LIVE PLC Questions And Answers

PLC training tools sale

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old March 5th, 2018, 06:40 PM   #1
Ih8Siemens
Lifetime Supporting Member
United States

Ih8Siemens is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: NoDak
Posts: 46
Point I/O vs Flex I/O

Hey fellas,

Customer had originally requested our services to check the tank levels of 8 tanks then provide a permissive to two Worldwide Drives (junk). Well after completing the task the other contractor involved failed to automate the entire system from the worldwide drive as promised so it has now been requested that I handle this. We had a micro 1400 out there which with a bunch of expansion I could probably get it to work to run the site however the enclosure it resides in has no more space for terminal blocks (required) and given the size and requirements of the application, we need to get a more suitable controller. Long story short we are now spec'ing out a new enclosure with a new controller (thinking L33) but we may have a need for either Flex IO or Point IO to handle roughly...

DI's - 47
DO's - 15
AI's - 2
AO's - 1

We also have 8 devices that communicate via modbus (can also communicate hart if needed) and 3 flow meters that communicate via hart.

I am leaning towards FLEX I/O to handle this process given that Point I/O has a max density of 8 and I would like to cut back on expansion cards. (thinking prosoft or HCS for Hart but throwing ideas around)

Given your experiences, what pro's and con's have you seen from Point I/O and Flex I/O? Where do you see one succeeding over the other and vise versa? Just trying to get some feedback from other point of views in the industry before I start developing this new control strategy.

Thanks fellas, I appreciate your feedback.
  Reply With Quote
Old March 5th, 2018, 08:36 PM   #2
Paully's5.0
Lifetime Supporting Member
United States

Paully's5.0 is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2006
Location: WI
Posts: 2,002
I wouldn't do FlexIO, it's an aged platform and I have to believe will be cycled out as Flex 5000 comes into play. Plus with your low AI and AO counts, you're giving up a bunch of space for 3 IO points.

I would go PointIO. I prefer lower density cards and usually use 2 point cards for analog modules and 4 point cards for digital modules, because you can land all your field wires directly on the card rather than some other terminal block.

Of course 1769 could be an option, or the new 5069 depending on the controller you go with so you have a few options.
  Reply With Quote
Old March 5th, 2018, 08:51 PM   #3
Ken Roach
Lifetime Supporting Member + Moderator
United States

Ken Roach is offline
 
Ken Roach's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2002
Location: Seattle, WA
Posts: 13,835
I agree that POINT makes the most sense. I use it all the time with CompactLogix controllers and 1734-AENT or -AENTR adapters.

Prosoft is a good vendor for the HART gateways.

You have a wide variety of gateway choices for Modbus, including the POINT I/O Modbus modules (sold by Prosoft, based on WRC Akron hardware).
  Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2018, 05:18 AM   #4
JordanCClark
Lifetime Supporting Member
United States

JordanCClark is offline
 
JordanCClark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 453
You may also want to consider IO-Link. I just started using it around our shop, and I gotta say, I likes it. Less scaling issues (at least, in the installations I've done so far), and I like the extra sensor diagnostics.
__________________
_____________________________
Jordan

Any man that can hitch the length and breadth of the Galaxy, rough it, slum it, struggle against terrible odds, win through and still know where his towel is, is clearly a man to be reckoned with.
-- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
  Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2018, 05:30 AM   #5
JordanCClark
Lifetime Supporting Member
United States

JordanCClark is offline
 
JordanCClark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 453
Dang it! Overlooked the HART stuff...

If you decide on the POINT route, Spectrum controls does make some HART modules for POINT racks.

I'm pointing to the cached version if the web page. Looks like they're having site issues this morning...
http://webcache.googleusercontent.co...&ct=clnk&gl=us
__________________
_____________________________
Jordan

Any man that can hitch the length and breadth of the Galaxy, rough it, slum it, struggle against terrible odds, win through and still know where his towel is, is clearly a man to be reckoned with.
-- Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy
  Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2018, 11:22 AM   #6
Geospark
Lifetime Supporting Member
Ireland

Geospark is offline
 
Geospark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Kildare
Posts: 2,322
FLEX > POINT > FLEX > POINT - PerFLEXing choices? Have a HART...

I wrote this short comparison some time ago to briefly explain the main differences between POINT I/O & FLEX I/O...

whats the difference between POINT IO and FLEX IO ?

For "heavy" HART applications, up to about a year ago, I would have leaned more towards the older FLEX I/O. At the time of writing the above info, POINT I/O did not have any direct Hart options available. As JordanCClark has pointed out, Spectrum Controls have since released POINT I/O Hart modules featuring 2 or 4 channel density. They are only supported using either ControlNet or EtherNet/IP POINT I/O adapters. The DeviceNet and Profibus adapters are not supported...

507215 - 1734SC-IE2CH & 1734SC-IE4CH Spectrum Analog HART module compatibility
Access Level: Everyone

Here is a reference to which POINT I/O terminal base should be used with these Hart modules...

624343 - Terminal base to use with the 1734SC-IE4CH spectrum module
Access Level: Everyone

And here is some info on where to get the AOP, EDS, manuals, etc., for these modules for RSLogix 5000 / Logix Designer (Spectrum Controls link also appears down from my side). Or alternatively (if there website never re-emerges!), how to add these Hart modules as a POINT I/O Generic Module...

606315 - Adding a 1734sc-IE4CH or 1734sc-IE2CH into a RSLogix5000 Project
Access Level: TechConnect

Another direct link to the downloads page for the AOP, EDS and DTM files (type "1734" in the search)...

http://www.spectrumcontrols.com/support/downloads/

As a result of this relatively new option, and along with the obsolescence of the older FLEX I/O platform, I would instead now recommend POINT I/O for this "heavy" HART application.

But, having said that, and as Paully's5.0 mentioned, the FLEX 5000 I/O Platform is the new breed of FLEX I/O...

FLEX 5000 I/O supports 1 Gb EtherNet/IP DLR, Linear, etc. Up to 16 modules can be added to a single node. It supports up to 32 channel digital I/O and 8 channel Analog I/O modules, including HART I/O. It supports Safety I/O modules. It supports module Removal and Insertion Under Power (RIUP). It can operate within temperatures of -40 - 70 °C (-40 - 158 °F) and extreme environments (Class G1, G2, and G3).

http://literature.rockwellautomation...p001_-en-p.pdf

So...that would lean me back again towards the new FLEX 5000 I/O platform for the likes of this application - except they haven't been released for general sale yet, at least not round these parts. Due for release Q1 2018 is the latest I've read.
Probably this or next month?...



So...that would swing be back to the POINT I/O option again if you cannot wait for the new FLEX 5000 I/O Platform.

Even taking the lack of module density into account for POINT I/O, their form factor is still quite slim. However, you do have to be careful with temperature when there are many adjacent modules in a relatively small enclosure. They can run hot without sufficient ventilation. The latest hardware series does improve on their heat dissipation somewhat.

Some questions...

From your I/O list - what is the intended layout? How much local I/O at the enclosure and how much distributed I/O? What protocol are you intending to use - example: EtherNet/IP? What distances must the distributed I/O communications cover? Is there any intrinsic Safety involved?

Regards,
George
__________________
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men".

Last edited by Geospark; March 6th, 2018 at 11:26 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old March 6th, 2018, 12:05 PM   #7
VAN
Member
United States

VAN is offline
 
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wa
Posts: 201
Might even try Balluff Distributed Modular I/O (I think AB has something similar but I haven't used it personally).

http://www.prweb.com/releases/2012/11/prweb10078623.htm
  Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2018, 05:45 PM   #8
Ih8Siemens
Lifetime Supporting Member
United States

Ih8Siemens is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: NoDak
Posts: 46
Thanks for the replies everyone, (GeoSpark I saw those Flex 5000 on i think a RA webinar and cant wait to mess around with them). The responses have been unreal and I believe we are gonna roll with Point. However, space has now become the enemy so the who project is gonna get really creative.... Thanks again guys.
  Reply With Quote
Old March 7th, 2018, 10:29 PM   #9
Ih8Siemens
Lifetime Supporting Member
United States

Ih8Siemens is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: NoDak
Posts: 46
Sorry GeoSpark I didn't see the rest of your post.
The layout is less than ideal. Basically we have a micro with ~59DI , ~24DO, ~8AI ~4AO.
The local I/O to the distributed I/O doesnt quite have a plan. The whole Synopsis of this issue comes from the fact that we were told only supposed to evaluate tank levels (2 oil tank, 3 dirty tanks, 1 gun barrel, and 2 clean water tanks) and evaluate clean tank levels that in return tell the injection pumps to start or stop based on levels, and then evaluate the clean tanks and dirty tanks to allow transfer pumps to operate based off of tank levels for both. If you are familiar with a salt water disposal, thats what this process is. When I arrived on site I had downloaded my HMI and controller program and then I noticed that they had all the cabling pulled for instrumentation but nothing landed. so i took a peek at the Hyundai drive to see how it was going to handle all of it and I noticed they had no means for doing anything like they said. The customer was backed into a wall so I got this micro1400 running the whole thing. we now hit a point where we just dont have space and I could wire directly into the card but I dont like doing that for a few reasons. So we were simply thinking of taking all of our injection I/O and putting it on the back of our panel with either flex or point, then just running some cat5. We also now need to get an additional HART card as well a creative strategy for adding a few more modbus devices into whats already a complex circuit.

Went on a rant there but our solution of Point I/O is no longer a solution. Were deciding that we are going to build a larger enclosure with an L33ER and no remote I/O. If it fits in the current place (it will be tight if it does) then were good, if not were going to just put up another panel board.

I do have to pick your brain, do you know anything about Hyundai N700E VFD's? I have been burying my customer with bad news and before I tell him that we have to rip them out for some PowerFlex drives I would like to try and get this POS to work with our system. If you do have some experience could you shoot me a PM and I can show you what I have? We have really dug into this and cant find a good solution.
  Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2018, 04:31 AM   #10
Geospark
Lifetime Supporting Member
Ireland

Geospark is offline
 
Geospark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Kildare
Posts: 2,322
I'm not intimately familiar with those Hyundai VFDs but there are a few experienced drive control experts knocking about the Forum who may know more on them. What I will do though is ask, as we always do, certain pertinent questions to get the ball rolling for everyone...

What is the full catalog number for the Hyundai N700E VFD that you've mentioned and what is it intended to control? (Pump, etc.)

You mention a couple of types of pumps involved here - so are there several of these Hyundai VFDs in play or just the one?

If more than one, are they all the exact same catalog number?
If not - list each catalog number and what they are intended for within the application.

These drives do support certain fieldbus types, such as Modbus RS-485 and optional Profibus, DeviceNet, or Ethernet, should you require a tighter level of control. They also provide both analog input and output options to assist in this task. If not necessary, you could also use the built-in digital I/O to control this drive in a more simplified manner.

For the 1769-L33ER controller - they support up to 16 local I/O modules with a digital I/O density of up to 32 points and analog I/O density of up to 16 input and 8 output points. Spectrum Controls also have 1769 CompactLogix HART I/O modules with a density of 4 input or 4 output points...

http://www.spectrumcontrols.com/prod...69-compact-io/

G.
__________________
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men".
  Reply With Quote
Old March 8th, 2018, 09:38 PM   #11
Ih8Siemens
Lifetime Supporting Member
United States

Ih8Siemens is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2017
Location: NoDak
Posts: 46
The VFD itself is just an N700E from what I can gather. There are two but I lucked out and got them to replace with Powerflex drives.

As for the Hyundai drives there was no way to control them besides HAND with start and stop buttons. Also there was absolutely nothing that can shut them down besides the operator pressing the stop button. After some long conversations explaining on how unsafe that is, we are on standby until we can get the PF VFD's in.
  Reply With Quote
Old March 9th, 2018, 05:40 AM   #12
Geospark
Lifetime Supporting Member
Ireland

Geospark is offline
 
Geospark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Kildare
Posts: 2,322
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ih8Siemens
The VFD itself is just an N700E from what I can gather...there was no way to control them besides HAND with start and stop buttons...got them to replace with Powerflex drives...
OK, but just so you were clear on what options you had before going to the PowerFlex drives...

"N700E" is just the family catalog number for these drives, namely - Hyundai N700E Series High Performance Drives. There are at least 50+ different models of the N700E drive which would each have a more detailed catalog number. That is what I was referring to.

They appear to have just used the built-in digital I/O to control the drives in a more simplistic manner, as I had mentioned you can do. But only if suitable to the application. You are certain this is not good enough. If so, then the next option that would have been available to you is to also use the built-in analog I/O to control the drive using closed loop control local to the drive. If that is still not desirable to the application then the next option available would have been to purchase some of the optional fieldbus modules, such as for Ethernet, to provide even tighter integration and control of these drives within the application. This is possibly what they should have done to achieve the required goal here.

Perhaps it is possibly what you should be doing here to achieve the same goal, rather than possibly purchasing new drives due to a lack of understanding of the available options for the existing drives? You say they are "junk" and, as I am not familiar with them, you could be right there. But are you only calling them junk because you think they cannot do what you/they want? They might not be junk at all and are just not properly or fully specified and kitted out for the job.

You're are moving on with PowerFlex drives, and that's fine too. I'm just pointing out, or reaffirming what appears to be the available options for the existing drives, just in case I wasn't clear enough before.

The PowerFlex drives will work very well when integrated with the 1769-L33ER CompactLogix controller. Just make sure that these new drives are specified correctly for the application.

Good Luck.

Regards,
George
__________________
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men".

Last edited by Geospark; March 9th, 2018 at 05:45 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old March 9th, 2018, 06:25 AM   #13
JesperMP
Lifetime Supporting Member + Moderator
Denmark

JesperMP is offline
 
JesperMP's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Copenhagen.
Posts: 13,202
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ih8Siemens View Post
Also there was absolutely nothing that can shut them down besides the operator pressing the stop button. After some long conversations explaining on how unsafe that is, we are on standby until we can get the PF VFD's in.
You mean you will be using PF with safety features ?

If it has to be a controlled stop, then yes that will require a VFD with the appropriate safety features.

If the issue is that there is no safety stop in the present system, and you just need to stop normally, then it is possible to fix without replacing the VFD.
You can have a safety circuit that disconnects the enable to the VFD a split second before a contactor between the VFD and the drive is opened.
__________________
Jesper
3 strikes and you're out
  Reply With Quote
Old March 9th, 2018, 11:42 AM   #14
CapinWinky
Member
United States

CapinWinky is offline
 
CapinWinky's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2011
Location: Virginia
Posts: 497
PoinIO doesn't have all the location certs that FlexIO has and FlexIO is on the way out. PointIO is also pretty chintzy and the terminal blocks break all the time.

You may want to look at B&R IO using an Ethernet/IP or Modbus bus controller (since you'll have modbus devices already). When you configure it, it spits out an L5X file to import that sets everything up in Studio5k. All B&R IO meet/exceeds the certs that FlexIO has, so you can use it in place you can't use PointIO and it takes up way less space and has more modules types than either FlexIO or PointIO. They also have Hart IO modules, so that's taken care of too. You can even
__________________
-----------------------------------------------------
Cycling power is a sign of weakness.
  Reply With Quote
Old March 12th, 2018, 06:01 AM   #15
Geospark
Lifetime Supporting Member
Ireland

Geospark is offline
 
Geospark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2012
Location: Kildare
Posts: 2,322
Quote:
Originally Posted by CapinWinky
You can even...
You must have power cycled there? Pity, I was just getting into that (Joke based on your signature).

A small observation on the above - the original FLEX I/O is "on the way out" but the "any day now" new FLEX I/O 5000 platform is its replacement (Lest readers might be confused between what we mentioned above and what you are now saying).

Also, stating that POINT I/O terminal blocks "break all the time" is quite a damning statement and, I'm sure, not the case for many users of this platform, myself included. They are plastic, so they do require care when working with them. Perhaps some are too heavy handed with them? (I don't mean you personally).

I'm not defending Rockwell's products here or taking sides. I'm just pointing out what I feel appears imbalanced in your statements (For correctness and not to show you up).

(I'm having to explain my intentions more & more these days to try and prevent unintended offense - idiots)

(That last one was a joke within the qualification of my intentions within the post)

(If I've forgotten to point out what I meant anywhere, and you have taken offense, then please reply to me in parentheses, for privacy, so I can then address my lack of due consideration)

(And apologies in advance)

G.
__________________
"A little nonsense now and then is relished by the wisest men".

Last edited by Geospark; March 12th, 2018 at 06:46 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Reply
Jump to Live PLC Question and Answer Forum

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump

Similar Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Point I/O Basics Narlin LIVE PLC Questions And Answers 9 August 22nd, 2014 09:52 AM
Flex I/O vs. Point I/O on CLX via ControlNet jkerekes LIVE PLC Questions And Answers 4 September 19th, 2012 06:25 PM
Contrologix PLC I/O and Flex I/O ojoladapo LIVE PLC Questions And Answers 4 February 21st, 2010 08:43 PM
1794 Flex I/O Error: Mod Config Reject Mfleming LIVE PLC Questions And Answers 4 June 2nd, 2009 07:58 AM
Ti 555 I/o ? bentleya LIVE PLC Questions And Answers 3 March 17th, 2003 09:36 AM


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:32 PM.


.