OT: Arc Fault Breakers

[monkeyhead]

So I'm re-working the majority of the electric in my house. I did the service last year and this year i'm removing all the 1930's era wiring. The inspector told me when he was checking the service upgrade that I needed to make sure I put AFCI's on the bedroom circuits for local jurisdiction compliance.

So i went out and blew $90USD on 3 square-D breakers... After about a week one trips out. I unplug everything, turn off the lights and reset the breaker... It trips again. So I disconnect the load side wiring and try to reset it again and it immediately trips. The thing is obviously shot.

Luckily Home Depot happily exchanged it for me, but now I'm worried about the longetivity of these things. I've never run into a bad breaker that wasn't the result of tripping too many times due to other wiring issues.

Anyone else out there have problems with these or is my paranoia just the result of some bad luck?

[TConnolly]

I would say it is more likely that you just got a bad breaker in the batch. I haven't had any unusual problems with AFCIs.

BTW, its not just a local jurisdiction compliance issue anymore. AFCIs are now mandated by the NFPA NEC2005 for all circuits that have an opening in a bedroom, including outlets and lighting.

[darrenj]

Arc Fault breakers here in Canada do not have to be connected to lighting. A friend of mine does residential and he had a bugger of time with some at the beginning because of the lights..

[CaseyK]

Out here in the cornfields 90 miles from Chicago, 2 communitites have started to require arc fualts. One one, LIGHTING IS NOT ALLOWED on the arc fualt. You need to be able to see to escape!

Many communities have taken it to the extreme, and require the smoke alarms to be on the arc fault, also.

I had several trip 2 or 3 years back, from a local FM station, whose tower was about 2 miles away. After several trips trying to figure it out, I heard a radio playing in the distance, while the breaker, and a couple GFI outlets were "buzzing" to the beat. I switched brands of GFI's to take care of that problem, but couldn't "rectify" the situation ith the arc faults. I have had the arc faults trip, with NO wires hooked to them. They are very touch at times. One local fire chief who is also an electrical inspector won't have them in his house. At that point in time, I was the only one wiring new
HOMES (the word is HOMES!!!) in that community. Maybe the problem continues, or the FM station got someone to adjust the Limiters in the audio amps.

Personally, the think NFPA blew it on this one.

regards.....casey

[Rube]

Originally Posted by CaseyK

I was the only one wiring new hoes in that community.

If I wasn't married maybe I'd try that.....

[monkeyhead]

wow... my inspector told me that any load in a bedroom has to be on an arc fault protected circuit except smoke detectors which should only be on a seperate dedicated circuit for smoke detectors.

this was just before the NEC2005 came out... don't know if my county has adopted it yet though. From what the inspector told me it usually takes 8 months to a year before they make decisions on NEC changes.

guess I should call some folks before I bother bringing the inspector back. i really hate the thought of having to climb around in all that fun blown in insulation in the attic again if i have to re-wire the bedroom lighting.

[monkeyhead]

Originally Posted by Rube

If I wasn't married maybe I'd try that.....

hehe!

[leitmotif]

Originally Posted by CaseyK
I was the only one wiring new hoes in that community.

Well I am going to be noble, take the high road and go with how it is spelled.
Casey how do you wire a hoe? I have seen them come out with electric lawn mowers, brush trimmers, grass trimmers, and other garden implements. I am curious how much work this saves.

Couple thoughts
I remember all the complaining about nuisance trips with GFIs when they first came out. When I first looked into ACFIs and read the thinking behind them I thought they were a fairly good idea. BUT I also remembered the GFI nuisance trip problem taking a few years to go away.

I agree that you should not use the arc fault breakers on the lighting circuits (the dang things are fairly expensive) for two reasons
1. To minimize cost by reserving these for receptacles
2. Hopefully to keep the lights on in case of fire

And wiring the smoke detecter into any circuit carrying any other load I think is crazy. Sure it takes another breaker but I have a dedicated circuit for smoke alarms only. In theory I suppose it should be one circuit for each detector but even I the King of Overkill (ask my brothers about that) have limits.

Dan Bentler

[CaseyK]

Originally Posted by monkeyhead

wow... my inspector told me that any load in a bedroom has to be on an arc fault protected circuit except smoke detectors which should only be on a seperate dedicated circuit for smoke detectors.

1). Never argue or question the inspector.
2). See number one.
3). I am serious, see number 1.

If he said to do it that why, you have no choise.

One local jurisiction has the lights on arc fault while the other doesn't.

NEC is NOT law, but the local inspector usually has "police" powers. And local code is loal law. That is why they can arrest you and fine you for not cutting your grass or weeds.

NEC is controlled by the NFPA, which translates to the insurance companies who want to.................

The insurance rating a local fire department has, is controlled by who? Her's a hint, Insurance...

Anyway, the safest thing to do, is what the inspector said.
If after inspection, it has to be "temporarily" removed and replaced with a normal breaker, while you get a new arc fault, then that is okay. So, how many years could it take to get back to your "TO DO" list?

regards.....casey

Sorry Mark, I HAD to correct the spelling.

BTW I just saw the 10 in the Nextel "Chase". And Little Jeffy isn't in there. Funny thing, Rusty and Martin call it quits, and have a really good year for a change. While I like Dale Jarret, I DON'T like UPS, so no loss there. Sorry about JR, maybe the new crew chief will help out. best regards.....kc

[CaseyK]

Originally Posted by leitmotif

Originally Posted by CaseyK
I was the only one wiring new hoes in that community.

Well I am going to be noble, take the high road and go with how it is spelled. Casey how do you wire a hoe? I have seen them come out with electric lawn mowers, brush trimmers, grass trimmers, and other garden implements. I am curious how much work this saves.

Dan, you are a gentlemen!

Actually, you take a large electric knife, and put a garden tool attachment on it, and whallah! an electric hoe, for small gardens. PATENT (not parent, I gotta spell check) not pending.

regards.....casey

[darrenj]

Originally Posted by leitmotif

And wiring the smoke detecter into any circuit carrying any other load I think is crazy. Sure it takes another breaker but I have a dedicated circuit for smoke alarms only. In theory I suppose it should be one circuit for each detector but even I the King of Overkill (ask my brothers about that) have limits.

Dan Bentler

Another difference here..They dont want the smoke detectors on a seperate circuit, This is becouse when the go off becouse of cooking or something the people would go down and turn the breaker off to shut them up..Then forget to turn them back on..

D

[leitmotif]

Casey thank you for calling me a gentleman. It is Sunday and I guess I am feeling saintly or something.

HOWEVER with respect to
"Sorry Mark, I HAD to correct the spelling"

AINT NO SUCH LUCK

You fouled up the spelling giving us an opportunity for fun.
There is NO fixing it now - you are on the hook, you are gonna stay on the hook and we are going to have all the fun we want.

For sure I am gonna have to watch my spelling.

ALSO Ingenious on electrifying the hoe. Do you watch Red Green show?
Sounds like something they would cook up.

Dan Bentler

[Kent Hostetler]

I was in Home Depot in May and picked up a flyer which told about Square D's "voluntary recall of our Square D arc fault interrupter (AFI) circuit breakers manufactured between March 1, 2004 and September 23, 2004."
see http://www.squared.com/us/squared/corporate_info.nsf/unid/9CB09A222974952E85256F19005EAE4F/$file/afcirecallFrameset.htm

[monkeyhead]

Thanks Kent.

I have the 'green button' version which came after the recall. Aparantly the arc fault is broken on the recall units, but not the regular ol' overload protection.

[Rube]

Originally Posted by CaseyK

Sorry Mark, I HAD to correct the spelling.

...and I had to make the response, it would have haunted me had I not.

Weird race Sat. Had to watch it Sunday when I got home from hunting. It's gonna be odd watching the Roush/Stewart contest. Maybe someone like Rusty will show up strong and make it really interesting.