Mechanical Press

[Avatar_41]

greetings to everyone. I want to learn big Mechanical presses like in the picture. Can you help me find documentation about this from manufacturers or articles?

 

[cidchase]

Avatar_41, do you have any background or training in hydraulics?
I believe that it would be a necessary pr pre-requisite skill to start troubleshooting or service on these machines.

 

[I_Automation]

I spent years in a stamping plant. Mechanical presses from 25 to 1200 tons.
That is where I was volunteered to find out what a PLC was and figure out why a fully automated press with feeder, straightener, rotating dual coil reel, automatic die change system was not working.


1 - Get 5 years of experience working on stamping presses doing EVERYTHING on them, including operating them, before you get into the controls for them.


2 - Stamping presses are very safety oriented. Cycle start requires an arming function that times out and 2-Hand control buttons to start while the arming is active. Setup cycle & single cycle require 2-Hand controls, Jog requires 2 guarded pushbuttons.



3 - To get in the controls of stamping presses along with the years of mechanical experience you should have at least 10 years experience programming PLC's and fully understand SIL2 requirements. When I was dumped in this at that plant I made a LOT of mistakes and could have easily got an operators hands chopped off because I really was not qualified to work on the controls. Years later I had the chance to go to a shop and meet one of my controlled presses and after looking at it told the customer to shut it down until I made a lot of changes to the PLC program and setup of the Cam Limit Switches - that press was dangerous, and yes - I did it under 'warranty' because it would have come down on me legally.


Basically, you are jumping in the deep end of a wave pool not knowing how to swim. Take your idea and put it on the back burner as something you want to advance to in 10 or more years.

 

[Avatar_41]

I really respect your knowledge and experience. Experience takes effort, you're right. We have 1 1000 Ton mechanical press, but there is no document for this press because it was collected from scrap. There are no backup files of the HMI panel, that is, signal tracking, fault finding, etc. It is really difficult and as you say, it requires experience. However, since there is no one to teach me how this press works, I have to start from the basics and learn how equipment such as overload, slide adjustment, rotary cam switch work. And unfortunately there is no backup for this machine, so I have to think 1000 times and act once. if i cause a problem with the machine there is no one to fix it but me and i will have a problem explaining it to my boss. That's why I need to start with the working logic of the press, learn the equipment, and then learn the procedure for troubleshooting. However, as I mentioned at the beginning, there is no one to teach me these things. I would like you to help me find the press documents of big press manufacturers like Cattaneo or Müller.

I spent years in a stamping plant. Mechanical presses from 25 to 1200 tons.
That is where I was volunteered to find out what a PLC was and figure out why a fully automated press with feeder, straightener, rotating dual coil reel, automatic die change system was not working.


1 - Get 5 years of experience working on stamping presses doing EVERYTHING on them, including operating them, before you get into the controls for them.


2 - Stamping presses are very safety oriented. Cycle start requires an arming function that times out and 2-Hand control buttons to start while the arming is active. Setup cycle & single cycle require 2-Hand controls, Jog requires 2 guarded pushbuttons.



3 - To get in the controls of stamping presses along with the years of mechanical experience you should have at least 10 years experience programming PLC's and fully understand SIL2 requirements. When I was dumped in this at that plant I made a LOT of mistakes and could have easily got an operators hands chopped off because I really was not qualified to work on the controls. Years later I had the chance to go to a shop and meet one of my controlled presses and after looking at it told the customer to shut it down until I made a lot of changes to the PLC program and setup of the Cam Limit Switches - that press was dangerous, and yes - I did it under 'warranty' because it would have come down on me legally.


Basically, you are jumping in the deep end of a wave pool not knowing how to swim. Take your idea and put it on the back burner as something you want to advance to in 10 or more years.

 

[parky]

Oh Dear, how many times over my life as a systems engineer have I been called in because some company have acquired second hand machinery without thinking about the documentation or if the manufacturer is still in business or the controls & hardware is obsolete.
I looked for that company & there were no references directly to them as press makers but other like commercial property etc., however, there is a valma trading that seem to deal with them, here is a link to their website there seems to be a little documentation but not looked at it.
https://www.valmatrading.com/portfolio/pm085_machanical-press-cattaneo-presse-800-ton-with-coil-line-brand-saronni/
If the company no longer exists then there are a few problems, one the PLC (if used) might be obsolete, password protected. If it uses bespoke types of controllers these are probably obsolete,
Some years ago I believe I went to a site where a company had purchased a second hand press (I believe it was one of these Cattaneo), the press was not operating, There were electrical drawings well a few sheets missing, I managed to find out that the E-stop circuit was not working & the run contact for the PLC was fed off this, Managed to sort that out, uploaded the program & documented the program as much as possible, replaced the PLC battery (was ok but being a few years ok not taking any chances), this is all I could do, the PLC was an Omron & not supported any more, I did suggest replacing it but the company didn't seem to be interested.

 

[Avatar_41]

My machine is one of the Cattaneo. Siemens PLC is used, the safety system is Pilz, but we do not have the HMI program. The electricity project is half, there is quite a shortcoming. But I couldn't find anyone working at Cattaneo. That's why I need electrical project and other documents, I don't know where to find it, can you help with this?

Oh Dear, how many times over my life as a systems engineer have I been called in because some company have acquired second hand machinery without thinking about the documentation or if the manufacturer is still in business or the controls & hardware is obsolete.
I looked for that company & there were no references directly to them as press makers but other like commercial property etc., however, there is a valma trading that seem to deal with them, here is a link to their website there seems to be a little documentation but not looked at it.
https://www.valmatrading.com/portfolio/pm085_machanical-press-cattaneo-presse-800-ton-with-coil-line-brand-saronni/
If the company no longer exists then there are a few problems, one the PLC (if used) might be obsolete, password protected. If it uses bespoke types of controllers these are probably obsolete,
Some years ago I believe I went to a site where a company had purchased a second hand press (I believe it was one of these Cattaneo), the press was not operating, There were electrical drawings well a few sheets missing, I managed to find out that the E-stop circuit was not working & the run contact for the PLC was fed off this, Managed to sort that out, uploaded the program & documented the program as much as possible, replaced the PLC battery (was ok but being a few years ok not taking any chances), this is all I could do, the PLC was an Omron & not supported any more, I did suggest replacing it but the company didn't seem to be interested.

 

[parky]

I have searched but the only Cattaneo I can find are schools & property I suspect they do not exist anymore, I presume if it is quite old then the PLC is an S5 probably a 115 processor, this has been defunct for over 20 years although spares are probably still available from some resellers.
The chances of finding a manual is probably limited.
Try looking for Saronni there seems to be some connection with them regarding reel feeding machines for presses.

 

[Avatar_41]

our press is made in 2006, it uses the S7-300 CPU, but thank you anyway. So where can I find a resource where I can learn about presses in general?

I have searched but the only Cattaneo I can find are schools & property I suspect they do not exist anymore, I presume if it is quite old then the PLC is an S5 probably a 115 processor, this has been defunct for over 20 years although spares are probably still available from some resellers.
The chances of finding a manual is probably limited.
Try looking for Saronni there seems to be some connection with them regarding reel feeding machines for presses.

 

[janner_10]

I've been doing this nigh-on 20 years and I wouldn't take this on.

 

[cidchase]

https://www.valmatrading.com/portfo...o-presse-800-ton-with-coil-line-brand-saronni
A little surface information, maybe a additional lead for investigation.

I, like others, feel that this project will never have a successful outcome, and the owners are overreaching in the extreme. However, stranger things have happened.
I don't want to be negative toward you, Avatar, but you may do well to listen tho these voices of experience.

 

[I_Automation]

You should tell your boss that this press will not run. Experienced press controls people, like me, wouldn't attempt a band-aid to try and get it running. Too dangerous and not guaranteed it is possible.


If I was hired to do it I would quote a complete new control panel and most electrical components (E-stops, safety relay, 2-Hand control [if not a safety PLC], cam limit switch, add a programmable limit switch if this is to run on AUTO mode, zero-speed detector, anti-plugging control, proxy's, buttons & limit switches. Plus I would go over every motor and valve on it. Plus require a new dual clutch valve whether it it pneumatic or hydraulic.)




Without the OEM to help that has the original build records this is a repair to walk away from.

 

[JordanCClark]

...the only Cattaneo I can find are schools & property I suspect they do not exist anymore...

After some sleuthing and looking at the wayback machine, they haven't had a web presence since 2007.

https://web.archive.org/web/20070415000000*/http://www.cattaneopresse.it/sigla.htm