Motion control question

[ceilingwalker]

Hello all. I stepped into an established system to integrate a Fanuc Robot to tend machines that are using CLX's. I have seen many a machine use Kinetix servo controls but I have not seen servo cards that mount in the PLC chassis before (1756-M02AE). I have not performed a deep-dive yet but wanted to ask a question or two before I do so next week.

1. Why would one select this method over using a servo amp and motor such as a Kinetix 5500? On the surface it uses the same motion move instructions. As I mentioned before, I haven't dug into this yet but, do these modules control AB servo motors.......or a special type of motor?

2. Why does each motion group have a virtual axis group as well (3-axes)?

Thank you

 

[plvlce]

do these modules control AB servo motors.......or a special type of motor?

I can't speak for general usage, but in the one cell I have that uses them they control hydraulic proportional valves.

 

[ceilingwalker]

I can't speak for general usage, but in the one cell I have that uses them they control hydraulic proportional valves.

I saw they had a special one for hydraulic applications in the literature.

 

[plvlce]

True, but this cell doesn't have them, just the basic M02AE... I can't say why it was done that way; I wasn't with the company when the controls were (re-)done to their current state over a decade ago.

As a side note, the 1756-M02AE and its variants are discontinued as of Dec 2024 with no planned replacement. I suspect whatever niche it may have once filled has been overtaken by separate servo controllers.

 

[ceilingwalker]

As a side note, the 1756-M02AE and its variants are discontinued as of Dec 2024 with no planned replacement. I suspect whatever niche it may have once filled has been overtaken by separate servo controllers.

Thank you for this info!

 

[Robobob]

The analog servo modules provide a ±10V analog output-command reference and support a variety of position feedback devices. This would be used for 3rd party non CIP servo drives or servo valves with an ±10V analog input. A little old school.

As far as the virtual axis, they are usually used as a leader axis for Gearing or Camming too.

 

[ceilingwalker]

The analog servo modules provide a ±10V analog output-command reference and support a variety of position feedback devices. This would be used for 3rd party non CIP servo drives or servo valves with an ±10V analog input. A little old school.

As far as the virtual axis, they are usually used as a leader axis for Gearing or Camming too.

Is this almost analogous to the old resolver used for positioning?

 

[lostcontrol]

The most likely answer is at the time of manufacture, there wouldn’t of been the same drives/integrated systems available in the RA product range.

The M02 was done by the famous Peter N of delta, who also build a high quality range of motion controllers.
One of them would almost drop in I would think

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

Since I have been dragged into this.
The M02AE was designed in the last half of the 1990s before the fancy networks that we have now existed. Now +/- 10 volts is an anachronism for servo control but +/- 10 Volts is still a common way of controlling hydraulic servo valves.


The M02AE has an +/- 10 volt analog output because that is what was common back then. The analog out put still needs to go to a drive that amplifies the signal to provide the necessary power/torque to make the servo motor run.


BTW, Delta is working on a Ethercat output. The Delta motion controller will be Ethercat masters able to control I/O, drives as well as hydraulic servo valves.



Also, back in the last 1990s, Rockwell was disparate to have a hydraulic servo card. Back then the M02AE was being developed. Delta/Rockwell thought it would be a good idea for the HYD02 to be as similar as possible as the M02AE. This would minimize design, software and training time if one goes from the M02AE. I was the one that converted the M02AE to the HYD02 code. While making the changes for the HYD02 I also improved the M02AE code a bit. Later I started on the M02AS and got the basics running but it was turned over to another Delta engineer that interfaced directly with the motion group of Rockwell.


Back in the late 1990s the SLC/500 had about 5 hydraulic cards. All were MUCH different because they were made by different companies. This caused a lot of problems with training, support, different parts etc. This is what we solved with the M02AE, HYD02 and M02AS because these 3 modules were almost the same.

 

[ceilingwalker]

Since I have been dragged into this.
The M02AE was designed in the last half of the 1990s before the fancy networks that we have now existed. Now +/- 10 volts is an anachronism for servo control but +/- 10 Volts is still a common way of controlling hydraulic servo valves.


The M02AE has an +/- 10 volt analog output because that is what was common back then. The analog out put still needs to go to a drive that amplifies the signal to provide the necessary power/torque to make the servo motor run.


BTW, Delta is working on a Ethercat output. The Delta motion controller will be Ethercat masters able to control I/O, drives as well as hydraulic servo valves.



Also, back in the last 1990s, Rockwell was disparate to have a hydraulic servo card. Back then the M02AE was being developed. Delta/Rockwell thought it would be a good idea for the HYD02 to be as similar as possible as the M02AE. This would minimize design, software and training time if one goes from the M02AE. I was the one that converted the M02AE to the HYD02 code. While making the changes for the HYD02 I also improved the M02AE code a bit. Later I started on the M02AS and got the basics running but it was turned over to another Delta engineer that interfaced directly with the motion group of Rockwell.


Back in the late 1990s the SLC/500 had about 5 hydraulic cards. All were MUCH different because they were made by different companies. This caused a lot of problems with training, support, different parts etc. This is what we solved with the M02AE, HYD02 and M02AS because these 3 modules were almost the same.

Thank you for all this information. If I am to understand correctly, does this mean that AB didn't have servo drive units available at the time, so these were used to drive someone else's SDU's at the time? I won't know until I go back to the customer but I believe it may have had Yaskawa servo amps in the cabinet. I apologize for all the questions, I just have never seen this before and I like to have an idea who does what before I go sniffing around in a control cabinet. Thank you

 

[alan_505]

No they had servo amplifiers but they were designed for a highly accurate + / - 10v to control them, then later we got Sercos (K6500 and U3000) and Devicenet (mainly Ultra3000) control and late still we got Ethernet control.

 

[Peter Nachtwey]

Thank you for all this information. If I am to understand correctly, does this mean that AB didn't have servo drive units available at the time, so these were used to drive someone else's SDU's at the time?

Rockwell had motion controllers back then like the IMC series, but they didn't have anything that was easy to program from the PLCs. Since the M02AE, M02AS and HYDO2 all fit into the Controllogix, there was no interface problems with the PLC, and they all used the same motion commands to make switch back and forth between modules easy. If you learned one you learned all three.
The HYD02, M02AS and M02AE can all use the same motion commands. The HYD02 and M02AS didn't need a homing command because the feedback was absolute, but we modified the code in the HYD02 and M02AS to accept these commands and report success even though not much happened in the HYD02 or M02AS except to adjust position.

EVERYTHING could be programmed from the Controllogix using RSLogic 5000 at the time. There was NO need for more software. Some customers preferred the Rockwell Motion Modules over our controllers because they didn't need to learn other software like our RMCTools. Other customers preferred our controller because it was more capable, but one had to learn more software.
The customer had a choice which is good.

I think Burt Au, the Rockwell Market Manager in charge of the project, and I made a lot of good decision here. We are still selling the HYD02 and M02AS.
There is an end-of-life date. The problem is that some of the parts are hard to get, especially the DSPs that are in the modules.

I am not in the loop as much as I was, but Delta has the means to buy old motion modules and check them out, so they run good as new. We have the bed-of-nails testing machines and burn in racks. I don't know if Rockwell will permit this or support this though. If the CLX doesn't support the motion modules anymore then they are done. We sometimes buy our old products off of e-bay for cheap Then we verify they work like new and sell them as refurbished. In the industrial world this help customers avoid downtime if a motion controller fails for some reason. We still see modules come back 30+ years later.