You are not registered yet. Please click here to register!


 
 
plc storereviewsdownloads
This board is for PLC Related Q&A ONLY. Please DON'T use it for advertising, etc.
 
Try our online PLC Simulator- FREE.  Click here now to try it.

New Here? Please read this important info!!!


Go Back   PLCS.net - Interactive Q & A > PLCS.net - Interactive Q & A > LIVE PLC Questions And Answers

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old April 16th, 2021, 03:25 PM   #16
JordanCClark
Lifetime Supporting Member
United States

JordanCClark is offline
 
JordanCClark's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Michigan
Posts: 552
Quote:
Originally Posted by VAN View Post
Also, it was still Java based and needed Java RunTime. I remember a couple of windows updates that made that an issue. I think its HTML5 now but even not using Ignition for so long I remember it being WAY better than FTME/FTSE.
Vision is still Java-based, but now Java is bundled with the client runtime.

Perspective is HTML5. I've done some with it, but there's a bit of paradigm shift in using it. Of course there was a bit of a paradigm shift when I started using Ignition 10-ish years ago...
__________________
All views expressed on this post are my own, and do not reflect the opinions of any entity whatsoever with which I have been, am now, or will be affiliated.
The following list is a sample of entities you should NOT blame:
  • plctalk.net
  • my wife
  • my church
  • my school
  • my employer (really, they already know I'm nuts)
  • my Twitter followers
  • my dog
  • my siblings (I can blame them for enough all of us)
  • my parents
  • my cousins
  • any polital party
  • Batman (or blame at your own risk)
  Reply With Quote
Old April 16th, 2021, 03:35 PM   #17
TWS
Member
United States

TWS is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: virginia
Posts: 286
Our Rockwell account manager, not the distributor offered us FT View for FREE if I would switch from Ignition. All I had to do was pay the annual support costs. I politely declined.
We have been using Ignition since 2012. We have had no issues.

I was on a Zoom call yesterday with my sales guy and a solutions architect to work out details of a major expansion. We have a single server with several projects running and about 25000 tags.
We are moving to 4 I/O data servers and one client server ( 5 licenses).
The final system build out will have 150,000+ tags and about 30 clients.
  Reply With Quote
Old April 16th, 2021, 05:57 PM   #18
Phrog30
Member
United States

Phrog30 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Montgomery, Alabama
Posts: 861
Quote:
Originally Posted by TWS View Post
Our Rockwell account manager, not the distributor offered us FT View for FREE if I would switch from Ignition.
That's still way too much. RA would have to pay me to use their HMI offerings.
  Reply With Quote
Old April 16th, 2021, 06:20 PM   #19
James Mcquade
Member
United States

James Mcquade is offline
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
Location: Tennessee
Posts: 3,091
I agree with ASF and rdrast.
Not only would i get that in writing and signed off by the local rep manager, i would also get the regional manager to sign off on it as well.

WARNING !
do not tell them who the customer is ! they will knife you in the back and give the software away, IF they do the programming, there is where they will make up not only the programming time, but the software cost also. Former company lost the contract due to that very fact. we had over 1,000 hours invested in getting the job over a 9 month period.

Yes, tech connect is a yearly contract based on the ASSUMED number of plc's in the plant and the software you buy.
James
  Reply With Quote
Old July 22nd, 2021, 07:45 AM   #20
nminchin
Member
Australia

nminchin is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 4
This is very similar to the question:
"For a professional document, should I use Notepad or MS Word / <insert favourite word-processing software here>?"

The answer is not Notepad.. Similarly, the answer to the OP is not FactoryTrash™.

I used to be a proponent for Citect back 6 years ago before I had heard of Ignition, but since my first introduction to Ignition, even Citect was like using Wordpad. I would never recommend FactoryTrash™ however for anything, unless of course you're a glutton for pain and punishment. I feel years of my life shedding away just talking about it...

There are so many advantages to using Ignition, i'll list some of them:
Just a quick note: Ignition has 2 graphic modules for developing SCADA apps - Vision and Perspective. Vision is mature, 15+ years old, developed in Java Swing. Perspective is the new kid, HTML5/CSS3, developed with React (and other stuff).
  • Cost. Priced per server only not per server, client, and tags. However there are options to reduce the cost further for smaller applications.
  • LIVE DEVELOPMENT ENVIRONMENT. This is hands down one of the greatest things about Ignition. Tags are live, gui is live including button actions/scripts/etc, even screen navigation (in Vision module). when you put it into run mode (similar to FactoryTrash™'s run mode but seamless and actually useable). Tags are always live however in the designer, and you can see live values in the tag browser and also in the pages that you're working on. All dynamic content is live, meaning parameter substitutions (think global object parameters), component bindings, everything.
  • FREE DESIGNER and resettable 2-hour demo period. A lot of products come with a free designer, FactoryTrash™ of course is not one of them. It also doesn't care for demo periods either. Ignition on the other hand offers a completely free designer and a resettable 2-hr demo period for every single module, in-house or 3rd-party, in order to trial the products.
  • Free "Maker" edition Ignition with basically full product functionality. Strictly for non-commercial use only and where internet is available, they offer 3 maker licences for the product to use for non-commercial use. Extremely useful for creating custom GUIs for your home projects, while also allowing you to hone your Ignition skills for work at the same time, or test things that you may not have the time for within billable hours.
  • Tag UDTs. Create templates for tags and instantiate them to make creating the same device tags super easy, and you know exactly what device type a device is without having to screw around comparing the tag list with your PLC AOIs.
  • Browse PLC tags directly within the Designer. You can browse PLC tags directly within the designer. You can drag these tags into the tag browser to create a tag for them (similar to creating tags in FactoryTrash™, only not ****). You can also create tag UDTs by dragging and dropping a collection of PLC tags into the tag browser directly.
  • A central location for all* Ignition server config and status of everything (limited list): users and security, backup schedules, server config, database connections, plc connections, email, auditing, alarm notification, modules, licensing, tag providers, diagnostic loggers, etc.
    Compare this to FactoryTrash™ where configuration is literally everywhere, with about 30 independent applications installed. I still haven't worked out exactly how to determine if an hmi/A&E/data server is actually running or not...
  • Access to server config/status and client installer from web server webpage. The stuff from the above point is all accessible from the web server. As well as that, so is the access to the Designer and the Client installers. No need to worry about copying around installation files to this client and that clients, it's all available from the web server.
  • Database connectivity is at the heart of Ignition and SQL queries are native functionality. You can literally bind component properties to a SQL query result (not a great idea albeit, especially if it's polled regularly - luckily there are options for all that).
  • Component property bindings. You can literally bind a dynamic expression/tag/query/etc. to almost every property of a component.
  • Property config is all in the property editor panel, not a stupid modal popup like in you guessed it, FactoryTrash™.
  • Graphic templates. Similar to FactoryTrash™'s Global Objects, templates offer a way to template your graphics such as for device symbols, analogue displays, etc. Unlike FactoryTrash™ however, template parameters can be used for anything you want. A template parameter is not only limited to being a <expletive> tag substitution (seriously, this is the most infuriating thing about FactoryTrash™), it can be a: json object (Perspective), dataset, or a simple datatype (int/float/string/bool/etc.) that can be used however you wish: within an indirect tag binding, within an expression, in a sql query, as part of the text of a label, anything.
  • Docked windows. Ability to dock a window/page to the edge of the client (N/S/E/W) e.g. for headers/navigation/alarm panel/etc. You can do this in FactoryTrash™ but it's SUPER finicky and breaks if you look at it wrong...
  • Control of content layout when resizing. Ultimate control in Perspective due to HTML5, but even in Vision you can use anchoring to force a component e.g. a table, to maintain e.g. 5px from the top, right, and bottom edges of the window so that it resizes nicely to different resolutions. You have 0 control from FactoryTrash™ and are stuck with relative scaling.
  • Perspective - All the benefits of HTML5 and CSS: CSS is god for styling standardisation, as you can literally define every detail within a CSS selector from font size and font-anything, colour, background colour, borders, drop shadows, cursor icon, animations, etc. etc. etc.
  • Vector-based graphics. Infinitely scalable graphics, unlike FactoryTrash™'s raster/pixel-based environment. SVG (Scalable Vector Graphics) files can be directly imported, and styling can be applied to any object within them, for example an SVG of a pump, you can style/colour any part of it and not have to export PNGs of every single colour/style that you might need (e.g. red/green/grey versions).
  • Have I sold it yet??? PS. I have no affiliation with IA (makers of Ignition)
  • Python scripting. Python beats the **** out of VBA in all aspects, but efficiency is its main advantage. It's a very easy to read language and has some awesome smarts to reduce your lines of code.
  • In-built SMS/email/voice solution directly into the product. No need for dodgy 3rd party solutions like Win911. Alarm escalation procedures are highly configurable.
  • All tag configuration is done in the one place, the tag editor. From the many different tag properties, to enabling and configuring history and alarms, it's all done from the one editor. Alarms and history are attached to the tag itself. Compare this to FactoryTrash™ where tags, alarms, and tag history are all infuriatingly independent.
  • You can literally copy a list of tags into json format, edit in notepad++(npp), copy from npp, and paste back into Ignition to overwrite tag configuration. No need to go through some stupid tag export tool like in FactoryTrash™ where it doesn't even know which project that you have open.... Although, there is also a tag export function that exports the tags you have selected, or alternatively all of them.
  • Event handlers. There are event handlers on most components like touch events, keyboard key press events, startup events, etc., but there are also event handlers on tags as well with the most prominent being the tag change event. You can write python code to do something whenever a tag's value (quality and/or timestamp) change, which is super useful.
  • Tags can be of many different data types: simple types (int/float/string/etc.), dataset, json object, etc. datasets and json objects are super useful for storing structured data.
  • Extremely helpful and active, MODERN forum. Based on the Discourse forum architecture (amazing software, super user-friendly and intuitive), the forum community is a hive of activity and is visited daily by Ignition experts, IA developers, IA quality assurance, IA technical writers alike. If you have a question, it will be answered, and generally very quickly. Compare with the RA forum which is a complete waste of time... there's not even a category for FactoryTrash™, and I daresay the devs don't even know the forum exists.
I could be here all night...

Please, don't choose FactoryTrash™. It's horrible.

I came from Citect, Cimplicity, ClearSCADA, and FactoryTrash™. I would never go back willingly.

*when I say all, I mean 99%. There is one other configuration file stored in a directory that houses the java configuration with the most important being the max memory Ignition can use. That's about it though that the average and even intermediate user would be interested in.

Last edited by nminchin; July 22nd, 2021 at 08:30 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old July 22nd, 2021, 08:02 AM   #21
nminchin
Member
Australia

nminchin is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by Phrog30 View Post
That's still way too much. RA would have to pay me to use their HMI offerings.
RA would have to bankrupt me and take away my legs for me to use FactoryTrash. Their PLCs on the other hand are great, although their need for installing 6billion applications is... annoying...
  Reply With Quote
Old July 22nd, 2021, 08:07 AM   #22
cardosocea
Member
United Kingdom

cardosocea is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Fields of corn
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by nminchin View Post
This is very similar to the question:
"For a professional document, should I use Notepad or MS Word / <insert favourite word-processing software here>?"

The answer is not Notepad.. Similarly, the answer to the OP is not FactoryTrash™.

I used to be a proponent for Citect back 6 years ago before I had heard of Ignition, but since my first introduction to Ignition, even Citect was like using Wordpad. I would never recommend FactoryTrash™ however for anything, unless of course you're a glutton for pain and punishment. I feel years of my life shedding away just talking about it...

There are so many advantages to using Ignition, i'll list some of them:
Just a quick note: Ignition has 2 graphic modules for developing SCADA apps - Vision and Perspective. Vision is mature, 15+ years old, developed in Java Swing. Perspective is the new kid, HTML5/CSS3, developed with React (and other stuff).
  • Cost. Priced per server only not per server, client, and tags. However there are options to reduce the cost further for smaller applications.
  • LIVE DEVELOPMENT ENVIRONMENT. This is hands down one of the greatest things about Ignition. Tags are live, gui is live including button actions/scripts/etc, even screen navigation (in Vision module). when you put it into run mode (similar to FactoryTrash™'s run mode but seamless and actually useable). Tags are always live however in the designer, and you can see live values in the tag browser and also in the pages that you're working on. All dynamic content is live, meaning parameter substitutions (think global object parameters), component bindings, everything.
  • Tag UDTs. Create templates for tags and instantiate them to make creating the same device tags super easy, and you know exactly what device type a device is without having to screw around comparing the tag list with your PLC AOIs.
  • Browse PLC tags directly within the Designer. You can browse PLC tags directly within the designer. You can drag these tags into the tag browser to create a tag for them (similar to creating tags in FactoryTrash™, only not ****). You can also create tag UDTs by dragging and dropping a collection of PLC tags into the tag browser directly.
  • A central location for all* Ignition server config and status of everything (limited list): users and security, backup schedules, server config, database connections, plc connections, email, auditing, alarm notification, modules, licensing, tag providers, diagnostic loggers, etc.
    Compare this to FactoryTrash™ where configuration is literally everywhere, with about 30 independent applications installed. I still haven't worked out exactly how to determine if an hmi/A&E/data server is actually running or not...
  • Access to server config/status and client installer from web server webpage. The stuff from the above point is all accessible from the web server. As well as that, so is the access to the Designer and the Client installers. No need to worry about copying around installation files to this client and that clients, it's all available from the web server.
  • Database connectivity is at the heart of Ignition and SQL queries are native functionality. You can literally bind component properties to a SQL query result (not a great idea albeit, especially if it's polled regularly - luckily there are options for all that).
  • Component property bindings. You can literally bind a dynamic expression/tag/query/etc. to almost every property of a component.
  • Property config is all in the property editor panel, not a stupid modal popup like in you guessed it, FactoryTrash™.
  • Graphic templates. Similar to FactoryTrash™'s Global Objects, templates offer a way to template your graphics such as for device symbols, analogue displays, etc. Unlike FactoryTrash™ however, template parameters can be used for anything you want. A template parameter is not only limited to being a <expletive> tag substitution, it can be a: json object (Perspective), dataset, or a simple datatype (int/float/string/bool/etc.) that can be used however you wish: within an indirect tag binding, within an expression, in a sql query, as part of the text of a label, anything.
  • Docked windows. Ability to dock a window/page to the edge of the client (N/S/E/W) e.g. for headers/navigation/alarm panel/etc. You can do this in FactoryTrash™ but it's SUPER finicky and breaks if you look at it wrong...
  • Control of content layout when resizing. Ultimate control in Perspective due to HTML5, but even in Vision you can use anchoring to force a component e.g. a table, to maintain e.g. 5px from the top, right, and bottom edges of the window so that it resizes nicely to different resolutions. You have 0 control from FactoryTrash™ and are stuck with relative scaling.
  • Perspective - All the benefits of HTML5 and CSS: CSS is god for styling standardisation, as you can literally define every detail within a CSS selector from font size and font-anything, colour, background colour, borders, drop shadows, cursor icon, animations, etc. etc. etc.
  • Vector-based graphics. Infinitely scalable graphics, unlike FactoryTrash™'s raster/pixel-based environment. SVG (Scalable Vector Graphics) files can be directly imported, and styling can be applied to any object within them, for example an SVG of a pump, you can style/colour any part of it and not have to export PNGs of every single colour/style that you might need (e.g. red/green/grey versions).
  • Have I sold it yet??? PS. I have no affiliation with IA (makers of Ignition)
  • Python scripting. Python beats the **** out of VBA in all aspects, but efficiency is its main advantage. It's a very easy to read language and has some awesome smarts to reduce your lines of code.
  • In-built SMS/email/voice solution directly into the product. No need for dodgy 3rd party solutions like Win911. Alarm escalation procedures are highly configurable.
  • All tag configuration is done in the one place, the tag editor. From the many different tag properties, to enabling and configuring history and alarms, it's all done from the one editor. Alarms and history are attached to the tag itself. Compare this to FactoryTrash™ where tags, alarms, and tag history are all infuriatingly independent.
  • You can literally copy a list of tags into json format, edit in notepad++(npp), copy from npp, and paste back into Ignition to overwrite tag configuration. No need to go through some stupid tag export tool like in FactoryTrash™ where it doesn't even know which project that you have open.... Although, there is also a tag export function that exports the tags you have selected, or alternatively all of them.
  • Event handlers. There are event handlers on most components like touch events, keyboard key press events, startup events, etc., but there are also event handlers on tags as well with the most prominent being the tag change event. You can write python code to do something whenever a tag's value (quality and/or timestamp) change, which is super useful.
  • Tags can be of many different data types: simple types (int/float/string/etc.), dataset, json object, etc. datasets and json objects are super useful for storing structured data.
I could be here all night...

Please, don't choose FactoryTrash™. It's horrible.

Again, I came from Citect, Cimplicity, ClearSCADA, and FactoryTrash™. I would never go back willingly.

*when I say all, I mean 99%. There is one other configuration file stored in a directory that houses the java configuration with the most important being the max memory Ignition can use. That's about it though that the average and even intermediate user would be interested in.
I've said it before and still maintain that Inductive Automation could wipe out almost over night Rockwell's attempt (and quite possibly Siemens too) at getting into the DCS game by launching a process library of their own (with PLC logic for the major platforms).

I would swap over immediately if they did.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nminchin View Post
RA would have to bankrupt me and take away my legs for me to use FactoryTrash. Their PLCs on the other hand are great, although their need for installing 6billion applications is... annoying...
LOL I see you haven't used other brands then...
  Reply With Quote
Old July 22nd, 2021, 08:39 AM   #23
nminchin
Member
Australia

nminchin is offline
 
Join Date: Jul 2021
Location: Adelaide
Posts: 4
Quote:
Originally Posted by cardosocea View Post
LOL I see you haven't used other brands then...
This is true, I'm not a PLC programmer But regardless, what would you recommend instead of RA PLCs?

Quote:
Originally Posted by cardosocea View Post
I've said it before and still maintain that Inductive Automation could wipe out almost over night Rockwell's attempt (and quite possibly Siemens too) at getting into the DCS game by launching a process library of their own (with PLC logic for the major platforms).
For the masses, this would be a good solution. For me, I'm super picky with my GUI and would always want to either customise it or create it myself. The PlantPAX faceplates don't do it for me at all...

Last edited by nminchin; July 22nd, 2021 at 08:43 AM.
  Reply With Quote
Old July 22nd, 2021, 08:44 AM   #24
cardosocea
Member
United Kingdom

cardosocea is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Fields of corn
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by nminchin View Post
This is true, I'm not a PLC programmer But regardless, what would you recommend instead of RA PLCs?
I'm partial to Siemens, but Beckhoff are well ahead of the rest in what they offer and the direction they're taking PLCs in. People here are also quite happy with B&R, but I haven't used them.
  Reply With Quote
Old July 22nd, 2021, 10:33 PM   #25
NetNathan
Lifetime Supporting Member
United States

NetNathan is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Corona, CA
Posts: 1,917
Another kudo for Ignition is that it will work with MySQL. Which can save some cost, since MySQL is free.
__________________
****Control Freak****
Net is where I be and Nathan is me.
I have a condition called "The Knack".
  Reply With Quote
Old July 23rd, 2021, 06:32 AM   #26
Chris Taylor
Lifetime Supporting Member
England

Chris Taylor is offline
 
Chris Taylor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2011
Location: Canterbury
Posts: 242
Cardosocea you forgot the free training at IA's Inductive University https://inductiveuniversity.com/
__________________
www.BIJC.co.uk
  Reply With Quote
Old July 23rd, 2021, 06:39 AM   #27
cardosocea
Member
United Kingdom

cardosocea is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2016
Location: Fields of corn
Posts: 1,905
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris Taylor View Post
Cardosocea you forgot the free training at IA's Inductive University https://inductiveuniversity.com/
You are correct. Worth pointing out that the training is pretty good (although some questions aren't particularly clear in the testing) and is updated regularly (or certainly a while back when I ran through it) to include new features. I think the updates was what surprised me the most as it's clear they care about it and it's not just a marketing gimmick or "close enough" for their users to work on their products.
  Reply With Quote
Old July 23rd, 2021, 09:45 AM   #28
PLCMentor
Member
United States

PLCMentor is offline
 
PLCMentor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Carolinas
Posts: 202
Another vote for ignition. Also there is robust security functionality available to protect terminals or just sections. It also has the ability to programmatically look at the client machine IP address name, etc. The database inter-connectivity is amazing. You can use simple transactions or script your database manipulations. There are dataset tags that you can tie to tables. The package was designed to work seamlessly with databases. There is redundancy if you want it. SMS and email notifications built in. Very flexible alarming and trending. There is really so much that after over 10 years of using it I am still learning. Amazing package.
__________________
Russell White, P.E.
PLCMentor online training
PLCMentor.com
  Reply With Quote
Old July 23rd, 2021, 09:57 AM   #29
rdrast
Lifetime Supporting Member
United States

rdrast is offline
 
rdrast's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: South Carolina Lowcountry
Posts: 5,516
Quote:
Originally Posted by PLCMentor View Post
Another vote for ignition. Also there is robust security functionality available to protect terminals or just sections. It also has the ability to programmatically look at the client machine IP address name, etc. The database inter-connectivity is amazing.

I generally now create a folder on the root drive of the client terminal, and just create/delete text files to easily configure that terminal for what it is supposed to manage.


On my startup scripts, I look for the config files with just plain "If <filename> exists, do <blabla> logic. For a line with a couple Main OCS's, and also local HMI's, it enables me to even change behavior while the terminal is running, say if one local HMI fails, I can just go to the system settings page on another, and configure it as the failed one.
__________________
------------------------------------
How to ask questions the SMART Way!

Look First, Ask Second!

  Reply With Quote
Reply
Jump to Live PLC Question and Answer Forum

Bookmarks


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Topics
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Ignition and Factorytalk Jasondelane LIVE PLC Questions And Answers 3 July 23rd, 2020 06:31 AM
Can't upgrade firmware for CompactLogix L32E mabauti LIVE PLC Questions And Answers 5 October 3rd, 2017 04:08 PM
RSLogix 5000 ver. 23 & FTView 8.0 jkerekes LIVE PLC Questions And Answers 16 February 12th, 2015 02:02 AM
FT View SE Editing Without License Mark Cole LIVE PLC Questions And Answers 9 November 22nd, 2014 09:03 AM
RS Linx Classic Read Only ronman LIVE PLC Questions And Answers 26 October 11th, 2013 10:44 AM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:29 AM.


.