What would you sell a plc program for

The question is probably rhetorical as I already know what I am going to do but it's a poser for some of you to debate.

Short version: A while back I built a system for a company that installs systems. It was mainly a conveyor queuing and priority system with lanes running into lanes and diverters etc.
On the face of it, a fairly simple logic system but it was actually very complicated to get perfect.
There were a few disputes during the install mainly centering around things missing from the spec I was given - to price from. I had of course covered my quote with the usual anything extra to the specification would be charged for and an exact list of what I was responsible for.

I mean, amongst one of the many things that was never mentioned was 10, 24V dc roller motors (The type that look like a conveyor roller but have a motor inside) This alone meant I had to supply an extra 30A of 24VDC plus controls.

But during the installation I was told by their engineer that he was sure the company was going to file for bankruptcy. I know the details but that is not for here.
I had been paid 50% of my quote and at this point I asked for the full amount to be paid (minus the extras) and to be fair they paid it.

When the job was complete and running like a dream (as a side note - and I am sure many of you have done this, I watched it working for 2 days without doing a thing to it enjoying the fluidity and poetry of the movement) I pass-worded the plc (I have only done that twice before to my recollection) as a tool to ensure payment of the extras.

They paid the extras with a grudge (saying they had lost money on the job and were now going bankrupt) I knew different.

And that was that. They did go bust and ceased to trade. (and it was nothing to do with this job) THE END.

Ah but no! 6 months down the line they have resurfaced as a new company and have put an identical system in elsewhere. They have used (much cheaper European) labour using my CAD drawings etc and it has run into trouble. ie won't work properly.

They want my program. (I meant to take the password off after full payment but I have never been near the place since)
They know it's pass-worded as they have tried to upload it.

Now to be fair, I always send the finished program to the customer when all the tweaking and alterations are complete but they went bust and there was no one to send it to.

What would you do?

Ronnie

It depends

I always say that any software I write is owned by the end user or purchaser for that particular site. In your case, its a different site and a different purchaser.

I suspect they have taken the stand that its already written and paid for so it won't cost you anything,(tell that to Microsoft).

I'd be hard, they have already used you drawings without consulting you. I'd find something that's different in the install and make a big deal out of it.

However, do you need an ongoing relationship with this customer. If so then a bit of moderation might be called for.

So, you sold a system to one company, got paid and they went bust.

Now another company has taken your design and made an entirely new machine out of your hard work.

Have they built it from scratch using your design?
Or did they plunder the old machine?

Either way, I would say it is their problem, not yours....

To be clearer, They make custom conveyors (or outsource) and build all the infrastructure for product lines sorting and packaging. (and connect all the specialist machinery together)
Their (not real name) was something like Packaging systems Ltd and now it is called Packaging Systems UK Ltd. But it's the same people as before and a brand new company. NB if there is a real company called that - I don't mean you. I checked online and didn't find one.

I am in touch with their engineer. It was he who told me they used my drawings. I only build and supply the controls and commission when the job is virtually installed. As I said earlier, It at first glance looked like a fairly simple logic system (albeit a big one) - but due to 'shall we say' bad mechanical design' and unforeseen things I had to program a lot of 'get out of jail logic'. But that was half the fun.
A for instance - operators will interfere with the smooth running by putting extra things on in the wrong place and taking things off etc, causing it to jam up later down the line.

I had to put extra reversing contactors and sensors in and jiggery *****y with the diverters to automatically clear the jam. I could have just said it's the operators fault but we don't do we?

I suspect that is half the problem now.

I would charge them exactly the same price as the first system and password protect it again!

Out witting the operators is half the program and the fun.

If they paid fair market for your work , effort, , program, and the upgrades in full, it's their program now. You should give them the password.

If they want you to debug the new system (and considering their history) get paid up front.

Since they have already built and tried to run the system they should have an in house.
Consult and charge twice the fee. If they don't like it, walk

By all means don't trust, limit your foot print , and have an exit plan.

John Morris said:

If they paid fair market for your work , effort, , program, and the upgrades in full, it's their program now. You should give them the password.

Click to expand...

The OP had a contract with a company which no longer exists. The current company has not paid the OP a dime. They have acquired the old companies assets and replicated the OP's work for a new system and are now asking the OP for a program for a new system. Legally, is the original contract even valid at this point?

If the OP's contract stated that his program/drawings would be replicated by the company many times over and that is what the OP was paid for then you could say its a question of ethics of the OP. If the contract was for 1 single system, the company is being shady and the OP should be paid for all the work required for a 2nd system.

If I were you, I would consult a lawyer and see what your options are.
What did your contract state when you did the work?
by doing this, you may save yourself a lot of heartache in the future.

james

Well played Paully, your right lots of grays here

But the second company is the first company with a new name. Same people who ran the first one into the ground, but paid him. In the OP's case, it appears he has trust issues

He pass protected to ensure the "extras" were paid. They were. Release the program.

If I was hired for a negotiated contract, did the work, made the program, got paid what I asked, and walked away, that program and all the fruits of my labor belong to that company.

If the same company takes my "up/down" program ( simplifying here ) and tries to run a "side to side" machine with it, then calls me and tells me it doesn't work. I quote full price to write a "side to side" program.

He wrote a program, and some of it was on site to account for specific elements of THAT environment. That's what they paid for.

They took that program and tried to run it in a different environment with different elements affecting it. And it didn't work. No surprise there huh?

I believe the company had a right to replicate the system they paid for. Because they do not posses the skills to make it run correctly is their problem not his. But they have a right to the program.

If there was a warranty for his work, I believe it only applies to the first system. But since the company he struck that contract with ( warranty in tow ) does not exist, they would have a difficult time affecting such warranties.

If the OP decides to deal with the second company on the second system, I agree with James..............get a lawyer.

You are missing a point here. They did not ask me to do the new system. Probably for cost reasons even though it would have been cheaper than the first as the program was already written and I had full experience of what was needed now.
They even could have built the control system and asked me to put my program in and commission it - then I get paid something too
I feel sure they will have charged the same amount if not more than the first identical system so it must come down to 'margin' and they have come unstuck.

I have all the usual rejoinders when I quote for a job and that always includes that it cannot be copied or altered without losing all guarantees and liabilities etc.
That's all you need isn't it, a court case where someone is injured and they copied my work from another system.

John Morris said:

But the second company is the first company with a new name. Same people who ran the first one into the ground, but paid him. In the OP's case, it appears he has trust issues

Click to expand...

I see where you are coming from but the OP didn't have a contract w/the individuals. His company had a contract with the old company. W/O a contract with the new company I can't imagine any lawyer telling the OP he has an obligation to fulfill. The catch is with legal state of the old company. What actually happened to the old company? Did it go completely under? Did it actually file for bankruptcy? Restructure? What is the legal wording of outstanding contracts? Are they inherited to the new company? Are they void?

I have to believe that the OP would have had to been given formal notice of any open contractual obligations the new company would be inheriting.

Flip the cards, if the OP never got paid and the old company owed him $50K, could the OP march into the new company and demand $50k? No!

The "grey" area is mixing the business dealings of the "new company" with the "old company". Had this just been a case of "Can you give us the password so we can maintain/support the existing line" I'm sure the OP would extend some professional courtesy given the situation.

The fact that the company is just copying everything he has done negates "professional courtesy" (at least for me). Default to legal obligations at this point. Granted, if the OP wants future business then both parties need to get to the negotiating table and hammer out an agreement.

If there was any real potential of future dealings with the 'new' company, I'd give them the password. However, they seem shady as hell - (original project was ****, bankruptcy, reformed co.. and so on) and are not people you'd even want to work with in the future.

So if they really want the password, they better pony up.

On a side note, who is the end user of the system? That is usually who I'd consider the owner of the program (although your contract may say different). It doesn't necessarily sound like the business in question is the end user.

I would tell someone like that that they would have to hire me to write a new program for their new machine. There could be subtle changes in what they built that may cause problems, or be outright dangerous, if it was controlled by your version of the program.

Also, I would get a substantial down payment, and invoice them weekly after that. Any late payments would result in halting the project.

Good Point Ronnie

We have something similar, it's a disclaimer though. This machine was designed to this and only this, anything else is your fault ( readers digest version ).

I guess if you really wanted out you could post a public notice stating such and such company used a program you wrote for machinery and operations it was not intended for and hence forth you not liable for any and all incidents occurring..........

But I digress.

Spirited debate though, thanks Paully's5.0

Sell them another "use lisence" for the new site program.