Does anything beat Wonderware?

Snap25

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I'm currently working on a FTV project and after putting 600+ hrs into Wonderware applications in the past year I realized two things... 1) I miss the hell out of Wonderware right now. 2) It feels like FTV is light years.

From everyone's personal experience & assuming money isn't a factor, what is the most powerful HMI/SCADA software out there?
 
Ive worked with wonderware, factorytalk, ignition, and iconics and ignition is easily the most powerful.
 
I worked with in touch a while back & absolutely loved it. I found it easy to use & loved the scripting abilities.

I then did a lot of work with HMIs so the functions were different & they aren't comparable. But now I am working on site with a factory talk SE distributed system. Now I find it pretty easy to do what I want with it, it has got an element that Bradley lets you do certain things. But all in all a decent software package.

Ash
 
Have used a few - prefer Citect. Having a look at Ignition - looks pretty good. Also have to re-visit an Adroit job - not my favourite. Citect did a job at Olympic Dam with well over a million tags - that number killed all other SCADA systems at the time. Not sure about know. Dialling out to remote PLCs - remote PLCs dialling in - massive.
 
Have used a few - prefer Citect. Having a look at Ignition - looks pretty good. Also have to re-visit an Adroit job - not my favourite. Citect did a job at Olympic Dam with well over a million tags - that number killed all other SCADA systems at the time. Not sure about know. Dialling out to remote PLCs - remote PLCs dialling in - massive.
n

+1 for Ignition.

easy to install, deploy, configure and run.
No special software required to configure and run.
Probably the best for getting data into and out of any open database.
Adding more clients is so easy, nothing special to add other than having Java.

Compare that to a FTSE distributed install where another client has to be added.
 
Ignition hands down. WW and FTView are bloat and money grabbers.

I was able to do a brewing project using Ignition that never could have been done with Wonderware or FT View. Primarily due to the database integration, recipe management, custom control windows/data analytics that had to be displayed, and reporting. Well, I shouldn't say never. It could have been done but at 2-3x the labor hours and probably 4x the licensing.

WW had a time where it reigned but it's over.

See my WW Rant...

EDIT: Don't even get me started on converting an InTouch application to an InTouch View System Platform object...
 
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we have used Wonderware intouch with and without archestra and wonderware system platform, the wonderware historian, Citect, iFix, Factory Talk SE (network distributed), Factory Talk ME, Factory Talk historian (Osisoft Pi), and vijeo designer with magelis panels.

All of these packages drive me crazy in different ways, and I wasn't on the wonderware system platform project so I don't have first hand experience with it, except when I had to go fill in for a weekend during commissioning and couldn't figure out how to add a tag.

Generally we try and work with whatever in house know how the customer might have in the region so if they already have 8 plants with citect we will use citect.

Both citect and Factory talk worked extremely well for us with multiple display clients.

The advantage of having factory talk read the tag database out of the PLC more or less outweighed all of the other nuisances. Too bad schneider doesn't have a tag picker in their HMIs that can read the tags out of the PLC. I guess that is what happens when your product is made up of dozens of acquisitions instead of designed to work together; bolt on integrations everywhere. The factory talk alarm system was great too. The factory talk trend tool is underwhelming. How can it be so hard to export the data that makes a trend to an excel or CSV file? They must make it so difficult to try and up-sell some other product.

The citect trend tool (process analyst) is the most useable I have worked with so far. the citect alarm screen prior to version 7.5 is an embarassment. I only briefly played with a version 7.5 trend screen demo but I feel that it is layers of hacks on top of their existing infrastructure. Citect is stuck in the 90s...but at least it works as advertised, is solid and reliable, even if it is a bit kludgy.

Generally I believe wonderware is more modern that citect, but it costs us significantly more due to the support contract to get the development software, and the licenses are more expensive too.

Going forward we are going to try ignition for a small project and then assuming that goes well hopefully will be using it wherever we have the freedom to choose for the client.

We dropped our wonderware and allen bradley support contracts. Still have schneider support because we use Unity heavily. Probably will default to citect in the future (or maybe wonderware will be included in schnieder support) if the ignition experiment doesn't work for us.

For touchscreen panels I want to switch to Red Lion so we don't have to **** around with licenses for Vijeo designer. My only gripe with the Magelis panels / vijeo designer is that to make a plot I have to make it the size I want on the screen, set the font size and number of decimals for the y axis, then look up the number of horizontal pixels on the plot area, and then set the datalogging period to correspond with the desired x axis time scale. Took a while to figure out that process!!

edit:
We are starting to include a mangoES device (http://infiniteautomation.com/index.php/hardware) in our control panels for the sole purpose of e-mailing automatically generated plots to the operator. They can also do cloud metrics monitoring style web based dashboards using google's Angular javascript framework and the AmCharts plotting library. A great way to marry old school modbus data collection and cutting edge client environment to get plots on to people's iPhones etc.
 
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Remember when you right clicked in the project explorer and it would crash the software?

Or how anytime an instrument tech touched a page w/o first hitting the shift button, objects would move.

Or the huge array of cd's?

Now they bought Indusoft and I'm scared.
 
we have used Wonderware intouch with and without archestra and wonderware system platform, the wonderware historian, Citect, iFix, Factory Talk SE (network distributed), Factory Talk ME, Factory Talk historian (Osisoft Pi), and vijeo designer with magelis panels.

All of these packages drive me crazy in different ways, and I wasn't on the wonderware system platform project so I don't have first hand experience with it, except when I had to go fill in for a weekend during commissioning and couldn't figure out how to add a tag.

Generally we try and work with whatever in house know how the customer might have in the region so if they already have 8 plants with citect we will use citect.

Both citect and Factory talk worked extremely well for us with multiple display clients.

The advantage of having factory talk read the tag database out of the PLC more or less outweighed all of the other nuisances. Too bad schneider doesn't have a tag picker in their HMIs that can read the tags out of the PLC. I guess that is what happens when your product is made up of dozens of acquisitions instead of designed to work together; bolt on integrations everywhere. The factory talk alarm system was great too. The factory talk trend tool is underwhelming. How can it be so hard to export the data that makes a trend to an excel or CSV file? They must make it so difficult to try and up-sell some other product.

The citect trend tool (process analyst) is the most useable I have worked with so far. the citect alarm screen prior to version 7.5 is an embarassment. I only briefly played with a version 7.5 trend screen demo but I feel that it is layers of hacks on top of their existing infrastructure. Citect is stuck in the 90s...but at least it works as advertised, is solid and reliable, even if it is a bit kludgy.

Generally I believe wonderware is more modern that citect, but it costs us significantly more due to the support contract to get the development software, and the licenses are more expensive too.

Going forward we are going to try ignition for a small project and then assuming that goes well hopefully will be using it wherever we have the freedom to choose for the client.

We dropped our wonderware and allen bradley support contracts. Still have schneider support because we use Unity heavily. Probably will default to citect in the future (or maybe wonderware will be included in schnieder support) if the ignition experiment doesn't work for us.

For touchscreen panels I want to switch to Red Lion so we don't have to **** around with licenses for Vijeo designer. My only gripe with the Magelis panels / vijeo designer is that to make a plot I have to make it the size I want on the screen, set the font size and number of decimals for the y axis, then look up the number of horizontal pixels on the plot area, and then set the datalogging period to correspond with the desired x axis time scale. Took a while to figure out that process!!

edit:
We are starting to include a mangoES device (http://infiniteautomation.com/index.php/hardware) in our control panels for the sole purpose of e-mailing automatically generated plots to the operator. They can also do cloud metrics monitoring style web based dashboards using google's Angular javascript framework and the AmCharts plotting library. A great way to marry old school modbus data collection and cutting edge client environment to get plots on to people's iPhones etc.

If you use the Schneider OPC then you can click on the tags. Unfortun. that was 600 bucks.
 
If you use the Schneider OPC then you can click on the tags. Unfortun. that was 600 bucks.

Are you referring to citect or wonderware for "clicking on tags"

Is there actually a citect tag picker that displays a tree or list of tags, or allows the tag name to be entered with some type of autocomplete? The project I am working on now has two unique PLCs with about 1000 tags, and then four identical machines with PLCs with 2000 tags. This obviously overwhelms a simple list and the global namespace that most HMIs suffer from; Factory Talk's tree based tag picker is the best i've seen here.

We experimented with OPC/OFS on our last project and decided it didn't offer any advantage over the in-house tools we have developed to automatically populate citect and wonderware with tags and metadata (formats, alarms, trending options) specified in the PLC program source.
 
I do agree, FTView tree based tag picker is pretty convenient. To me, this factor doesn't outweigh all the annoying nuisances when it comes to building graphics.

I guess I just got accustom to the simplicity of WW's Archestra graphics and things that should be simple, like moving things around and lining objects up in the application window. It doesn't seem very smooth and kind of a pain in the arse when using FTV.

Another thing that drove me bananas was not only do you have to integrate and program everything, you have to be a damn artist when building graphics! I didn't have time for all that! I bought a 4,000+ pre-made graphic package.

I think I will check out Ignition since a few of you praising the product..
 
Another vote for Ignition. I am still new to it, working on my 2nd application. There are some things that are weird about all of them. Ignition has outstanding support and free online training.

We have some customers running Wonderware. I tried to call them for help once since a customer had a PC die running an old version on XP. I just wanted to know if it was going to run on Windows 7 if I tried to move it. The lady on the phone said she could not let me talk to an engineer since we had no support contract and nearly hung up on me until I asked about what would it cost to upgrade to get support and a license for Windows 7 compatibility. Turns out Ignition was cheaper than upgrading the licenses they already bought.

I have not bought the Symbol Factory for Ignition. That is one complaint. For that kind of cash, they should be able to give you the full Symbol Library. Crimson 3.0 comes with it and its free! I guess it is different since Ignition graphics are svg and not just bitmaps. So to be stubborn, I have been making my own symbols, but so far, it has not taken too much time to build up the pieces I need.

FTView is horrible. That software made me want to toss my computer down the stairs just doing an upgrade from 4.0 to 5.1. Luckily, the IT Department fixed my registry in only three days. I have since changed jobs and don't have to deal with it. I have some customers who may one day need changes made to a Panelview+ and I will make my partner install that garbage on his machine, or I will include the cost of a new laptop and VMware if I get stuck doing it. I did one RSView32 to FTView Station in the last year, and I won't bother with that again. Between all the quirks and 32-bit versus 64-bit hurdles, I could have rebuilt the thing with something else just as fast as the import and repair.
 
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I have not bought the Symbol Factory for Ignition. That is one complaint. For that kind of cash, they should be able to give you the full Symbol Library. Crimson 3.0 comes with it and its free!

I think the Symbol Factory option is only left out for the small 'limited' licensing versions of Ignition. For their 'unlimited' versions I believe it's included. It isn't included with their 2-hour demo, as I assume it's a licensing caveat for Symbol Factory. I suppose it depends on perspective, is Crimson actually providing Symbol Factory for *free* or are they simply not giving you an option to NOT purchase it? The Symbol Factory license cost is just baked into their license cost in general. I've seen a couple of instances where Symbol Factory was a line item addition to the SCADA/HMI licensing.
 
There is no charge for Crimson 3, it is pro-rated into the Hardware.
http://www.redlion.net/crimson-30

In this no software is "Free", someone pays for it somewhere.
Quite frequently in longer learning curves, Engineering, Commissioning and Troubleshooting times as well as in the hardware.

I think the Symbol Factory option is only left out for the small 'limited' licensing versions of Ignition. For their 'unlimited' versions I believe it's included. It isn't included with their 2-hour demo, as I assume it's a licensing caveat for Symbol Factory. I suppose it depends on perspective, is Crimson actually providing Symbol Factory for *free* or are they simply not giving you an option to NOT purchase it? The Symbol Factory license cost is just baked into their license cost in general. I've seen a couple of instances where Symbol Factory was a line item addition to the SCADA/HMI licensing.
 
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