Copyright

Does anybody know if a PLC program (Ladder Logic) can be copyrighted ??
I have purchased a Skid mounted Fuel Rail System. It came with a Siemens S7-300 series PLC. The company I bought if from wants $6,000 for the password to acess the software and the symbol table that they used to write the ladder. The ladder can not be interpedted without the symbol table.. I think I'm going to have to back engineer it. We will not be able to change any parameters with out it.

That's a new one on me. Our contracts specify, when done by an
outside company, that all programs, documentation, etc.
will be turned over to us. If you can view the logic and have wiring
diagrams it should be a fairly easy fix. Since its on a skid
it shouldn't be too large of a system and shouldn't take very long
to do.

What s7-300 is this? Does it have on board I/O? Do you have nothing at all in the way of documentation? If this is not the onboard I/O type 300 there are clever ways past the hardware password. The Know/How protect in the blocks is a bit more trouble but it can be done.

Further......Change vendors and tell all your friends and associates not to buy from the buggers either. There is nothing worse than being ham-strung by an OEM.

Lenny

A PLC program can be copyrighted. This does not require registration with the Patent and Trademark Office - simply including a coupyright notice on all documentation and in the program is sufficient.

It may be too late now, but for future projects you should do at least two things. First of all, negotiate the price for access to the program at the time the contract is written, and be prepared to sign an agreement indicating the program will not be copied or moved to another machine. Second, any normal adjustments such as alarm levels, time delays, instrument scaling, etc. that require change as part of normal operation should be accessible and adjustable from an operator interface panel without requiring access to the program logic.

Contrary to some of the above posts, I don't see anything wrong with protecting logic and programming that is unique and specialized, provided that the intent to do so is made clear at the beginning of the project. Intellectual property is just as important as real estate!

I've never heard of this either. Most of the time we are required to turn over all source PLC code, HMI code to the customer.

I have however heard that FUNCTION BLOCKS can be copyrighted. I ran into a situation once that a FUNCTION BLOCK was copyrighted in a PLC. It was controlling some PID LOOP, and the company before me had comments in there function block that we could not copy it. I double checked the copyright office documentation, and it was registered in both hardcopy and electronic at the copyright office... I thought that was going over the edge alittle myself...but I guess that's just me.

Believe it or not, some people do come up with unique and better ways to do things. They should have a right to protect those ideas just like any other inventor.
We are also required in most cases to pass over all details of a job, but if it is something that we have developed over the years and not for the specific job, we treat it like any other purchased part.

I think all these protectionist tactics are counterproductive to the advancement of civilization. The bottom line is that those who have will take as much money as they can from those who have not.

If you copyright a rung of logic, can I copyright my hardwiring? If you had to actually pay someone everytime you sang a song, wrote a sentence, or had a thought, you would soon have nothing.

Without a doubt everyone who uses this forum believes information and knowledge should be exchanged. If everyone working on a cure for cancer had been working together on it, there would be a cure today. You just have to put the right spark of information into the head of someone with a different background from you to get amazing results. The bottom line is that all this legal mumbo jumbo comes down to greed.

Greed holds back the advancement of civilization. Everyone emulates what they see and puts a twist on it. When I was running a BBS years ago before the WWW fired up, I read an interview with Bill Gates in which he said the use of internet email by the general public was a fad, just like CB radios were in everyone's car in the 70s, and that the internet would soon go back to being used by institutions only. Not long after that Netscape came out, and soon after that Internet Explorer. Look how rich Bill is now from Internet Explorer, Outlook, etc. We are all thieves, it's just that those with money can use lawyers to put those without money or lawyers in jail.

This subject is way too deep for a PLC forum...........

copyright of a program is not based on greed it is based on protection of your work and ideas. That is why it exists!

The greed comes from the leeches that think they can make money from someone else's work.

I always put a copyright notice on all of my documentation. This also acts as protection. I have to have (as well as public liabilty insurance) 'product insurance'.
This basically means that if I design something that consequently maimes or injures somebody then I am liable to prosecution. This insurance covers me for this possibility.
If however someone alters my program and something nasty happens, They take liability and I can sue them as well.


copyright means 'as is' no copying or altering without my express permission.

As vetteboy says: This might be too deep for plc forum.

I understand that most of you have to follow your own company rules and have copyrights. But me, shoot...I believe in knowledge exchange, opensource code and posting all my plc code to a download board to share with everyone that wants to learn plc's. And most of what I see from my customers are they want the code so they can change it we write so what's the point anyway? If you did register your ladder logic to the copyright office, and submitted a hardcopy and electronic copy to the copyright office, and did get your copyright in the mail a year later, that's about the normal turn around time....what happens if you change a big chunk of code? You gotta resubmit your whole plc code again, the hardcopy to the copyright office and pay your fees again. Unless you have a blanket copyright like most companies. But some of those are too broad to cover everything anyway. The best protection is a specific copyright for the exact plc code. A Function Block would be a good example, but I think it's just funny. But again, that's just my point of view, and I am not hear to change anyone's mind,

I am hear to share my knowledge, and my PLC code when I can.

Copyright????

We put a note in our documentation to the effect that the code is the exclusive property of the client and our group. This protects us from liablilty if someone takes the code and uses it inproperly. We never ever provide password protected or blocked or un-documented code to a client. Why, well because we know that there are as many different ways to write a program as there are programers. Though our group comes up with some fairly clever ideas, locking out our users and/or their hired help is just too expensive in the long run. We make our bucks from project developemt not service calls. It just ain't cost effective to be that greedy.

Oh, I am not suggesting that those that think they want to hold their customers hostage should quit....heck we make a good living following them and providing their former clients the access they should have gotten in the first place.

Lenny

Could be more to the story

There could always be more (or less) to this story.
Many times, end users who are buying a 'system'
try to make it as cheap as possible. Is it posssible,
that someone, 12 months ago, perhaps in the accounting
or purchasing department, allowed the vendor to reduce
his price by $6,000 by stipulating away access to the
program source. Maybe.

In general, any work performed 'for hire' ('contract')
is the property of the purchaser when all the money
changes hands. And, regardless of how unique all the
PLC programmers in the world think their work is
(I count myself in this group), lets be honest and
say that, really, down deep, there's not much to this
stuff that can't be reverse engineered.

Is $6,000.00 too much for the source code? Maybe...
What would it cost to reverse? And, if you DO reverse
the thing, what are the odds the guy will come back at
you with an action to cease and desist.

At the end of the day, it sounds like this vendor has
sour grapes with this client, will eventually get his
$6,000.00, and lose a customer in the process. At which
time, he'll go get more customers. Happens all the time.

In general, any work performed 'for hire' ('contract') is the property of the purchaser when all the money
changes hands.

Click to expand...

NOTE I am not an OEM nor have ever been one, but did work for an Engineering company once that built CNC burning machines.

THE above statement is wrong. Companies every day create/build machines for other companies/individuals. The work they do is their own, UNLESS they are following a customer guidline that has been laid out in contract.

Alot of people BUY new cars every year or so, we own that car and can sell it at any time BUT do we own in any rights to the creation??? NO.

This isnt too deep for any forum, you get what you pay for. If you buy a machine from someone they you OWN that machine and can do as you wish with it BUT you do not necessarily own any rights to its making...that includes the code if a plc is used. NOTE the car example above..today they use computers with a program..you may pay $25000 for a car (maybe more) but you dont own any rights to its computer program.

Whether my analogy seems proper or not, writing code is not the issue. The development/design/building can/is the issue. Companies deserve the right to protect what they do...that includes ways to password protect or copyright any programs for machines they build/develop.

There are some issues that make this get into legal moraffs..ie possession is 9/10ths of the law...ie they have the program and you dont then you make have to prove legally you are entitled to it.

I have the Engineers/Management include ownership of code/documentation when adding/building a new system, protects ME. If they buy a new machine from an OEM (which they have) and I cant obtain the code (because it wasnt part of the deal) then I have to live with it.

NOTE: I dont have to like tho, at this time I have a rewind machine that uses a KM plc that has a failed analog output, this plc has a high failure rate. The company that actually built the machine has closed, the company that did the electrical/control/programming WILL NOT give us the program NOR will they JUST replace the plc. For some the price they and others want may not seem like much ($60000) but to me its way overboard for the small system the rewind involves.

I am not worried about the machine, I will one way or another rebuild it. I will not deal with that Electrical company in the future. Some of us can recognize what is involved in a business and accepts that, its life in the real world.

Whether a painting, song, story, software, or program code then people should be able to protect what they do. This is not greed, its the ability to protect yourself from greed.

Its funny, all of US have had to learn to PAY for what we get...ie want a car..buy it. Want a house...buy it. Education...buy it.

NOW with PC's and the WEB everyone thinks that so much SHOULD be FREE.

WHY?

Our company designs and builds electrical switchboards, PLC systems and SCADA systems. We place a copyright notice on all our drawings, PLC programmes and SCADA systems. This precludes the use of our design on any other project but does not preclude the paying client from use of the design.
We have professional liabilty insurance for our systems to cover us in the event of a foul up.
We also password protect our PLC programmes. This precludes any person(s) from altering the software without our knowledge and causing an accident or costly damage to machinery. This password is available to the client after a year and a day (end of defects liability) free of charge.
Most programmers that password protect their code and require payment for access do not get another job from the client. This brings back memories of the BMS people who sometimes buy a job and then put out their hands for many thousands of dollars for a simple ten minute change.
I can see no objection in ptotecting your design and software with a copyright notice.
Interestingly enough it is amazing how many times we see our drawings and designs copied and pasted from spec to spec by electrical consultants. This can be very frustrating when years of experience and development are made known to the world by this method.
beerchug

Vetteboy said: "I think all these protectionist tactics are counterproductive to the advancement of civilization. The bottom line is that those who have will take as much money as they can from those who have not."

I respectfully disagree. The intent of the American founding fathers in designing patent and copyright law was specifically to promote the advance of technology, industry, and the arts. They knew that to do this, in the real world, required assurance for the creator of the intellectual property that they will receive economic compensation for their efforts. You may call that greed, but I call it compensation for effort. After all, if I can't protect the results of my unique insight and expertise there is nothing that would keep larger "greedy" competitors from taking over the results of my work and driving me out of business using my own technology! In other realms, the "starving artist" makes for nice poetry, but in reality how much art or music would be created if the artists or musicians couldn't support themselves by economic return on their efforts?

Bear in mind that, particularly in the case of patents there are two parts to the bargain. The first is protection for the technology covered by the patent for a limited time to provide incentive for invention. The second is that the patent must disclose the details of how the invention works and thereby promoting the dissemination of knowledge and further advancements.

I would like to thank everybody for their replies. Just a side note I work for a very large company. The company that is refusing to give me access the software is a real small company I could very easily dispatch a team of corporate lawyers after them. The lawyers tell me I have a case. I wanted to ask you guy’s what you thought first. I have decided to pay the $6,000 for the passwords. (They also kept the instrument passwords for the flow meters) I believe the we are being taken for a ride. I did not write the original job scope, if I had I would have included the terms of full software access. Needless to say a corporate wide notice will go out warning against using the company in the future.

Again; Thanks for all your comments.

Jim S.