'Consumer Reports' for PLCs

Hi Folks,

This post comes from here: here

The concept is simply a version of Consumer Reports magazine for PLCs.

A new PLC comes to the market, we get one, it circulates to a bunch of 'members', each person uses it and reports on what they found--- good and bad(including manufacturer support). He/she ships it to the next member for testing. The results are published on the site.

Initially, some issues come to mind and were posted in the above thread.

1- Cost.
I don't see spending $1000's to run a test. If your company is investing $1000's on an individual plc you probably have already standardized on a particular brand. The results of member tests from here are probably not going to change the opinion of the company. There are larger issues to think about.

However, a micro/mini used on a single machine is probably not a company standard (although it could be...). The risk to the company of spending $100's to investigate the model is small. The same is true for an oem looking to save a $1 anywhere possible.

So, I would see more benefit in testing the low cost micro's/mini's.

2- Donated or bought
PLCs.net doesn't accept advertising. The reason is so decisions are based on the 'best thing to do' as opposed to 'we are financially dependant upon the sponsor so what they say goes'.
Is the 'product of the year' winner in your magazine of choice REALLY the best product... or the biggest advertiser. When was the last time you read a negative review??

I believe accepting a donated unit means the review must be positive. Am I wrong?? Will plcs.net be responsible if a member fries it(or keeps it)?

I prefer bought. Does plcs.net have deep pockets? Nope. Each decision will have to be based on 'available cash' at that moment.

3- Tester bias
Most all plc makers have a 'company person' as a regular member here. That's ok, it's smart for them and helps the community with expert knowledge. It's a win-win. Some disclose it in their posts... some don't. That's also fine.

For reviews, however, we should expect full disclosure. PLC makers are not welcome to test...

For the rest... you're all biased to some brand(s). State your bias upfront as part of the review. Compare it to your 'brand of choice'... but state the bias.
"I'm used to using brand X. Compared to that brand the documentation is awesome. Plus it's free." ...

4- What to test
We would need to devise some standards or general concepts. Possibly that could be taken care of with a survey of most important factors in making a low-end plc buying decision.

Your feedback is welcome, so please offer it here.
Volunteer reviewers will also be needed if we decide to go forward...

PLC Consumer Reports

You can accept donated items and remain impartial.

I believe accepting a donated unit means the review must be positive.

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Not at all. Donate equipment is quite normal with computers, cad software, ham radio, and probably many others. Kim Comando gets tons of donated computers andperiphials, and she trashes a lot of them on the air. ARRL has guidelines on their testing. Some magazines return the items, others sell them, some keep them at "bounty". Donater needs to be aware up front that the report may be unfavorable. I tested some radio equipment on the "State Approved Bid Sheet" that was very unsatisfactory for police and fire use. Local dealer got wind, called local police chief, city manager, mayor, governors office, and several people in the state police. It was junk, and the report said so. There was spectrum analysis, and adjacent channel readings. Everyting was WELL docuented.

I don't particularly care for Siemans. Mostly based on what I have learned here. Do they make a good product? Probably. Is it easy to program? Probably not. Could I objectively test it? Yes. But I would need a guideline to test it, or a benchmark. Should I test it against a 9030 or Micro90? Then it would be bad for Siemans as I think GE is tremendously easy to program.

Will plcs.net be responsible if a member fries it(or keeps it)?

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If some fries, well that happens. Warranty! Would a really good product fry? Maybe. Maybe Not. If a member keeps it, then it is legal. Anyone in the testing program would have already signed and returned a legal document being responsable FOR POCCESSION. Overall, supplyee of said item to plcs.net would understand that the might or will not get it back, as the case may be.

Anyway, more opinions out there waiting to be heard.

BTW, I think testers should either be known only to Phil, or to just the group of testers, not publicallly know on the forum.

regards.....casey

My major concern here would be the software required. How would the software liscense be transferred to another user to test? I know that most PLC manufacturers allow their software to be installed on multiple PC's within that particular purchasers company. Would being a member of the forum fall under this category? Then there are the few that make reinstallation of their software a nightmare(not naming anyone). Besides this one point then I think that it would be a brilliant idea. I also agree that you can accept donated items and remain impartial. The PLC manufacturer would have to realize that the members of this forum would be doing them a favor by pointing out any improvements and accept any criticism given.

Dale

For comparing PLCs, it would be a good idea to have a standard set of programs to try in each PLC (traffic light?). Some of the programs may use features that aren't readily available in all PLC software. The "how to do this" comparison could be very interesting.

As far as getting hardware is concerned: some new comers to the PLC market may see the value in allowing their equipment to be exercised by professionals. Other manufacturers may need someone to explain to them the value in NOT being the guys who won't submit to trials.

I say approach a few vendors, see who might be interested in lending out hardware and software. Somebody must stand by their product.

AK

I would be tempted to argue about the benefit of a "traffic light" program vs machine control or even motion control. Would I be able to make an informed decision based on the evaluation of a traffic light if I am attempting motion control?

Just my .02.

But it is a very good idea to at least evaluate the ease of use and software, etc. based on a test program like a traffic light. Maybe we should have some of the students that keep asking for traffic light programs to evaluate them ... but then again maybe not.

I certainly agree that a review program would be a welcome service, and who better to "sponsor" such a program than Phil? But I have to say that the program needs to be very consistant if the results are to be of any value at all.

To do that, I agree with kc9ih, that there needs to be a set panel of reviewers, perhaps known only to Phil, who do the "official" testing. This will help make sure that each evaluation is less biased and relatively fair. If I to evaluate one PLC and then Terry were to come along and evaluate another, would anyone even remotely believe that my evaluation was near as complete as his? I know I wouldn't. If you agree with that, then you probably agree that a set panel of folks doing the evaluation would be best.

Then, I also agree, that programming guidelines of some sort would have to be implemented. What good would it do, as Oakley points out, for us to compare a traffic light program to a motion control program without doing both.

Last, I think it would be a really great feature to specifically have a hardware comparison. Since most micros have something like 10 inputs, 6 outputs, 1 or 2 analog outputs and so on, I think a comparision based against a "standard" would be nice. Include things like DIN rail mounting (Y/N), Ethernet interface standard (Y/N), etc.

Steve

I think it can be done, and is a very good idea. A couple of thoughts, for what they are worth:

1) I don't think you need worry about being influenced by donated equipment. First of all, even if it biased you (very unlikely in my opinion) it would hardly extend the bias to the outside reviewers.

2) It wouldn't be hard to have a field on the review form that would indicate the reviewers industry, standard brand of PLC, and preferred brand of PLC. There isn't anything wrong with conflicts of interest as long as they are openly revealed to all parties.

3) I would suggest that each member interested in being a reviewer submit a text file with logic description to you identifying what their program will do, what generic kinds of program functions they would use, and what I/O it count it would need. For example, I use a lot of anlalog I/O and math functions, so you might not want to send the latest discrete only micro PLC to me. Other guys use drum timers, and some use bit shifts and FIFO, and others do a lot of PID, and so on.

4) Since sommunications is so important now, you might want to consider two PLCs and an HMI for each test of all but the smallest brick PLCs (I mean unitary). That would make donated stuff mandatory.

Excellent points... lots to think about.

I tend to agree with Ron's post in the other thread regarding 'nothing comes without strings attached'... but perhaps I'm wrong and a 'donation' wouldn't be a bad thing.
I guess the only way to find out is to solicit a demo unit and be up front about the potential for a bad review.

So who's volunteering to be a reviewer?
I'm in. Who else? Post here or PM me.

Next up, what to test and how. How about we form a reviewer team and come up with some ideas in addition to the ones here and in the other thread. Then toss the ideas up for comments.

So, who's in?

Count me in.

I like the idea of a standard task to be programmed. I have some ideas along those lines that I have already passed along to Phil. If I remember correctly, Ron Beaufort had a standard that he's used for teaching PID. That might be helpful, if Ron's willing to make it available. Since many micros include a high speed counter function, we should come up with a standard for comparing that capability as well.

In addition to a comparison of the instruction set and the programming software, I'd like to see an evaluation of the ease of mounting and wiring. Say, install the unit on a panel surrounded by wireway at the recommended clearance and wire up all the terminals. Are they large enough so that you can jumper all the commons together if necessary? Can you complete the wiring without special-sized tools? Is the battery compartment easily accessible? If there are field-replaceable fuses, how easy are they to get at?

It probably wouldn't be feasible to see how much of a lickin' the unit could take and still keep on tickin', but a reviewer should certainly include his impressions as to the durability of the unit.

Full disclosure of the reviewer's preferences is a good idea.

Looks like we should all keep those pads and pencils close to our beds in case we wake up in the middle of the night with more ideas.

Phil Melore said:

I guess the only way to find out is to solicit a demo unit and be up front about the potential for a bad review.

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Well that didn't take long...

One of the 'large' plc makers has already stepped up to the plate. So, it initially looks like we'll have some product to work with.

Of course testing of products is open to all brands... large, medium and small alike. The more brands the better...

Phil
I guess most of us could write a report on our favourite brands as well, good, bad and ugly. Post the reasons for opinions, sample code (can we post pdf please?), printouts and anything else considered worth while.

Results and field failures would also be a good idea.

This may get a "head start" for us all.

I guess the biggest problem is someone is going to have to moderate the responses so that "horrors" do not appear to discredit the independant and impartial nature of the forum.

Most of us could also beg, borrow or steal a PLC from manufacturers and have a look, when we have time. I am just a little guy on my own but spent $110,000 AUS on PLCs last year from one manufacturer. Spent another $40,000 with others.

Just remember, we all have quite a lot of clout with the manufacturers. I had complaints, and suggestions, go back to Europe about the TWIDO. B++++y French would ignore it anyway. They always know what is best for the rest of the world.

Phil Melore said:

One of the 'large' plc makers has already stepped up to the plate. So, it initially looks like we'll have some product to work with.

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Do they understand that the product will be circulated for a while? And, have you made arrangements for software. It seems like every demo I've ever been given is missing some critical piece: software, cables, instructions.

I'm always interested in trying out products. In fact, it might just be another excuse for "Team Milwaukee" to get together. I'm sure I can find some place that will give us some space to work. You folks from Chicago would be welcome to attend, of course!

AK

BobB said:

I guess most of us could write a report on our favourite brands as well, good, bad and ugly. Post the reasons for opinions, sample code (can we post pdf please?), printouts and anything else considered worth while.

Click to expand...

Please do post such things. The downloads section is begging for such information. PDF's are fine.

I guess the biggest problem is someone is going to have to moderate the responses so that "horrors" do not appear to discredit the independant and impartial nature of the forum.

Click to expand...

I think an honest report showing the good/bad/ugly with 'factual' data is fine. I'd be happy to moderate it but I don't expect it to take much time. I can't forsee anything being published here unless it was for the benefit of the community.

Just remember, we all have quite a lot of clout with the manufacturers. I had complaints, and suggestions, go back to Europe about the TWIDO. [/B]

Click to expand...

So, if suggestions/praise/problems were made public on an open forum (ie. where tons of 'potential customers' frequent) improvements might be made and people might be inclined to buy from the good and perhaps rethink the 'need improvement' products.

I don't think many of us realize that more people come here in a month than read the typical trade magazines monthly? I won't say exact numbers (but the magazines do...) but let's just say there's an 'extremely significant difference'. Plus about 99.999999% of the visitors here are actually interested in PLCs. That's a well targeted audience for a PLC maker. If you had a 'good product' would you offer it up for testing?? FREE advertising on a targeted site that doesn't allow it?

In the end... everybody wins, the manufacturer as well.

I'm in, great idea. Junior programmer perspective?

It seems every PLC is the same today. They just don't break down that often. Too many sales people talking nonsense with little knowledge.

Would also offer any wiring help. Just ship the 'whole' batch up to Belleville, and all 'Sims' will be wired properly. You may not ever see them again lol.

I don't think AD will be beat. But what the hell do I know.

Johnny


p.s. had service call yesterday, machine did not work (not the MLS/MLR Machine). Showed up, 'hydraulic error' indicator was on. Checked programme, showed mechanical guy the 'reset' button. Machine still did not work (hydraulic error again). 'Helped' mechanical guy find faulty hydraulic relief valve. The pictures posted were that machine, just not the subject (MLS/MLR). Maybe intermediate perspective?

"SIMS" ???