Electrical panels code...

Ministry of labour visisted our plant and they were so picky on every panel without approved lable. what dictates that a panel is safe or not.What are requirements by NEC?
some of them are buit 20 years ago which code was different.how about those panels?
do we have to upgrade every piece of equipment now?

Does anybody have information on this.I appreciate it alot.

I'm not sure about Canada, but in the US panels are grandfathered. (at least ours are). However this may depend on what the panels are for. Elevator panels (new ones) fall under a unique code (A17.5-1996), which often referes to NEC, with somme additions and recensions. Your panels may fall under a special code unique to the spicific machine.

Electrical Panel Codes

The best guide for building new panels in the US is NFPA 79. As for the 20 year old machines, they are grandfathered as long as they stay at that location. When moving a machine from one location to another the grandfather clause is thrown out the window. We moved a machine from NC to CA and it had to be UL inspected. We ended up scrapping the machine for spare parts because it cost more to bring the old machine up to UL standards, then to purchase a new machine.

I am not sure what the specifications are in Canada but in the US you are suppose to use warning labels like this stating voltage.


There are also regulations that require naming ...ie Panel 1, Panel B, Machine 1... whatever.
Breaker panels are suppose to be fitted with lockouts for individual breakers.
Technically any machine etc is suppose to have detailed sheets showing lockout points etc. Even an older machine has to have a dedicated disconnect that can be locked out. Motors are required to have a lockable disconnect within a certain distance and line of sight...this may be the main disconnect.

I will have to look up the details but had to go thru the labeling/naming but we outsourced the breaker lockout part. I am not sure how the code is in Canada but it will probably be similar.

I am not going to debate who has authority to enforce the rules, in some cases the insurance carrier will require conforming to code. The Fire Marshall has alot of authority with electrical installations.

The main point is that they may NEVER be inspected BUT that doesnt mean they shouldnt conform to code...let someone get hurt then see where the blame lies.

There are always exceptions but figuring out what applies can be harder than making the effort to conform to basic safety aspects.

Before anyone gets upset I am not stating a 20 year old system has to be upgraded, rewired or replaced. I am talking about fixing broken doors, replacing broken/missing box/outlet covers, having designated lockout points for all energy sources, marking panels/boxes...An unattended open panel door is a violation of code.

I have some stuff I had to do on a bunch of machines that I will upload so you can see some of what I mean.

Ron, I would be interested to see what all you had to do, mainly as a check for what I have done in the past. As an example, in our plant the smaller machines (30A service and smaller) are for the most part hooked up with an SO cord and twist lock plugs. We were told that this could count as a disconnecting means. I still have doubts about that and have been adding actual disconnects to machines when we get the chance and the downtime.
When I first started at this plant, there was no detailed list of what breakers fed what machine, what transformer fed what panel..... Caused many issues for us. I spent several months getting it figured out and now maintain a very good list that is easily read. Also wrote LOTO procedures for every machine including elect, pneumatic, hydralic, and gravity. Labeled every machine as to where its elect source was fed from, ie "Breaker Panel 3 Breaker 20".

Dale

In Canada all panels and electrical installations require approval by an inspection agency. What province are you in? In Ontario we have a few options, one of which is the ESA (Electrical Safety Authority), formerly Ontario Hydro Inspection. At a past employer we had a couple of dozen panels that didn't have approval stickers so I swung a deal with my local ESA inspector to spend a day or two and blitz them all. He cut us a deal on the cost and we got all the panels inpsected and approved. He wanted to see electrical drawings in each panel, maximum fuse ratings, nameplate info with interrupting current, amperage, voltage, and where it was fed from. Getting it done made him happy, and a happy inspector is the kind I like!

As a guy who has spent 20 years in safety and then gone back to electrician let me ask this

Was this inspector
from the Canada equivalent of US OSHA (or an equivalent state ie province program)
or a Canada equivalent of an NEC type inspector.

Now in US OSHA has a regulation to label panels for multiple power sources. Other wise they pretty much follow NEC including grandfater.
IF (in US) a local NEC type ie from city state etc they can adopt NEC and or write other rules.

This program is awful slow tonite so I will finish tomorrow.

Dan

little late for me as well but other than what u all have covered so far.
only thing i have to add. and im not even sure if its required, but beleive it is.
when building a panel knew. ive always been told. we must lable fuse blocks seperate relays with the drawing reference #, and all TB strips like u would see in a ac or dc drive. or controller. someone correct me if this isnt neccessary.
and as far as 90% of machines built 20 years ago. i would say if u going to move it or anything. if its of any size at all. like alot of **** in it.
i would replace anyway.

something i can say is any panels i see coming from canada or europe. seem to have much more detail and what we southerners call to much ****. but looks very professional.

and for some reason i thought i had already regestered..
going to bed for now.


Goss Electric. Automation Group.

leitmotif said:

Now in US OSHA has a regulation to label panels for multiple power sources.

Click to expand...

CAUTION! MORE THEN ONE LIVE CIRCUIT!

Finish

leitmotif said:

As a guy who has spent 20 years in safety and then gone back to electrician let me ask this

Was this inspector
from the Canada equivalent of US OSHA (or an equivalent state ie province program)
or a Canada equivalent of an NEC type inspector.

Now in US OSHA has a regulation to label panels for multiple power sources. Other wise they pretty much follow NEC including grandfater.
IF (in US) a local NEC type ie from city state etc they can adopt NEC and or write other rules.

This program is awful slow tonite so I will finish tomorrow.

Dan

Click to expand...

Running better

ElevMike Posted
CAUTION! MORE THEN ONE LIVE CIRCUIT!
That is what I am talking about. It can be argued that this type of thing has to be posted on machine and not just control panels and includes all sources of "power" steam, air hydraulic etc etc and where to isolate them.

People will tend to do Lock out tagout if you make it easier for them. Also for the gamblers labeling removes their excuse of not being able to find it. (yes I know they are too lazy to trace a pipe).

Regardless of whether or not it is required, it makes sense to make the job easy for the next guy - listing power supplies, having drawings printout of PLC program etc etc makes it easier for the next guy (who might be ME) to figure it out.

We all have favorite war story of gobbled up mess of wires and relays with conduit going all over building and no one having an idea of what it is supposed to do.

I think the whole point is NUTS to the inspector things should be labeled because it is the smart thing to do and is cost effective good business practice.

Dan Bentler

How can I calculate the short circuit capacity of a electrcal panel? what do you mean by grandfathered?

Thanks for all the replies

atatari said:

How can I calculate the short circuit capacity of a electrcal panel? what do you mean by grandfathered?

Thanks for all the replies

Click to expand...

Short answer...you dont calculate..an engineer does..grandfathered means "it was here when the place opened and i havent touched it"

more detailed answer..

to calculate the interupting capicity depends on the feeder size main interupting capacity distance from breaker how far down the "chain" the device is etc..etc..its not a simple calculaction..If the breaker feeding it has an interupting capicity of 25,000 amps then make sure the main disconect of the panel and fuses is rated for at least that..

as for granfathered the simplist way to look at it is in residential terms..In ontario you need an outside plug to be GFCI protedcted...However if your house is 20 years old and dosnt have a GFI outside the Inspections cannot make you put one in..the can recommend but not make you..It was "grandfathered" The recognise it isnt up to todays code but it was acceptable when the place was built..

As for M.O.L. giving you a hard time..do as was suggested and get a field inspection on the panels. Again in onatrio the ESA will come out and look and tell you what needs to be fixed..It usually is basic stuff like secondary grounding on the transformer,Label all fuses with max fuse size. Branch circuit breakers are rated for branch circuit use. It is usually fairly painless..Just be nice to him and he will be nice to you..a company i did some work for had a pile of equiptment from china and asia in there plant..our inspector came in and picked thru it.He only required drawings for a machine the owners built themselves..All the other machines he didnt need drawings for(Just translations on all the labels!!)

Good luck and from a liability stand point you should always have them in if a machine shows up without a CSA or a ULC label..Dont forget it is aginst the law to sell a piece of equiptment is canda without them..so most manufactures will not even kick when you hand them the bill for inspecting an out of country machine..

d