How to define advertising

Timothy Moulder's post extolling the virtues of the latest Unitronics offering inspired this thread.

At the top of the page, Phil requests that we not use the PLCs.net forum for advertising. My question is this: How do you determine what constitutes advertising?

It's pretty obvious that some of the regulars here are employees of PLC manufacturers or distributors. That's a good thing because those people are experts in the application of their products across a wide range of industries. They've seen the applications, they've experienced the idiosyncracies of their product, they know the the answers to the FAQs, and they know where to look for the answers to the questions they can't answer.

It's also a good thing that they disclose their affiliation because the downside to having all that knowledge is that they can also be missionaries for their product line. It helps to put a response in its proper perspective if you also know that the respondent works for the company whose product he/she is talking about.

The line between passing along product knowledge and marketing is a blurry one. There isn't a clear-cut demarcation between the two. If I tell you how to use a feature in General Schneider's PLC, am I pointing out a potential application that you might not have considered or am I trying to get you use that brand instead of Rock Om or Mitsumation Online? Is the person who only answers questions about a particular brand trying to sell that brand or is he simply smart enough to stay away from discussions about brands he's not familiar with?

It could prove to be an interesting discussion. If you're an employee of a PLC manufacturer or distributor, what standards do you apply to your posts? If you're a user, what standards do you wish the manufacturers and reps would stick to? Where, to you, is the line drawn between marketing and product knowledge? What is your reaction to a post that crosses your line?

Since I work for a Rockwell distributor, and since 95% of my PLC/HMI experience as an end-user has been with their products, I tend to respond to RA posts mainly. If it is something general in nature or involves another product I have experience with, I may "join in the fun".

I hope that I don't come off as an A-B cheerleader; I will mention programs or promotions if it is in the context of a "What is your opinion of best/cheapest, or how much will it cost" type of posts. I will also be the first to scream about what I perceive to be an inferior or "not quite ready for the marketplace" RA product. I will also do the same for any other manufacturer's product that I have used and found to be lacking. (I'm an equal-opportunity complainer)

I think this is an interesting point. On this forum I'm an end user, but I could be accused of "boosterism" for some of my favorite brands. I didn't see a problem with Tim's posting, partly because he is a long time and valuable contributor. I interpreted his posting as sharing information on a product that he likes. I'm sure he felt he was doing a service to the other forum members, and in my opinion that is what he accomplished.

On other forums similar to this, I am a supplier to the industry and many of the posters are potential customers. I apply an "info only" standard. If the question is one I can answer without any specific potential product application for my company, I just answer and let it go at that. If the question includes something like "I'm looking for something to ......" I post a response that says I may be able to help, give my email, and suggest they contact me outside that forum. So far nobody at that site has objected to this approach.

Hi Tom,

Thanks for the kind words

Personally, I feel like I expressed in my earlier post... the difference is disinterest. If the party is disinterested, then it's a recommendation. If they are not disinterested, then it's be a sales pitch.

Not to say that vendors should not post here. I value Stephen Luft's input, I think he's vital here, and I wish I could get the Unitronics tech staff to check in more (when I see a post with a Uni question, I forward it on to them). And if AB were to come out with some really spiffy new feature, I wouldn't mind hearing about it - I sometimes think of uses for things after I first hear about them here.

If a person is making an out-of-the-blue recommendation / pitch about something, they ought to put down whether or not they work for the company in question. My bad - I usually do this, but today I was in a hurry and forgot, and I don't fault Steve for calling me on it.

It is a good subject though! I wonder what the others will have to say?

Thanks!

TM

I recognize that some guys here work for PLC manufacturers, but I have to say that all of them seem to show up here just to help out. If anything, I think they get plenty of criticism of their products here, and hopefully they send it right back to headquarters.

Tim's post didn't strike me as an advertisement. If he had posted prices and special deals where he would get a commission, it would be a different story. Although I'm not considering switching platforms, I at least looked at the Unitronics specs because of his post, and I'm always interested in new products.

And despite my user name, I am not affiliated with Siemens at all, and I curse them as much as anyone else.

Interesting subject to bring up Steve..

Personally, I don't take any of the advice offered here as 'advertising', it seems, to me anyway, that the company 'reps' here do only offer 'products' as a solution when the product they are 'promoting' actually fits the bill. There are not too many questions that ask... "What PLC should I use for this....?", so the oportunity to blatantly advertise a product does not arise that often and when it does the 'end users' usually get their favourite PLC in there as well.

Who are these reps anyway????

All of us have our 'favourites', some are our choice some are dictated to us by customers or company policy.

In my case, I am stuck with Siemens, so if a rep of another PLC manufacturer was 'encouraging' me to use another brand I would totally disregard their comments, only because I have to.

Some of the time, when offering advise, it is hard not to advertise, if I didn't know better, I would swear that Mike (elevmike) is on commision from AD.

Paul

P.S I haven't read the post in question from Timothy, mainly because I tend to only read the posts that are to do with the brands I know.

I work for Rockwell Automation as a developer of end-user training materials (Right now, I am working with RSView ME/SE). I generally peruse the forums to investigate the types of problems end users typically have, and to help point them in the right direction if I can. For application-specific questions, my expertise is not yet to the level of the regular posters.

Although I write the material, I am not directly involved in the sales of Rockwell products and/or services. However, I would be more than willing to answer either general questions or PMs about Rockwell's training offerings.

Most importantly, I find that I learn several new things each time I visit the site.

Rick

I work for a GE Fanuc distributor, and I do not hide it.
How do I determin when and what to post? Very simple.
If I know the answer and no one else has posted the correct answer before me, and I have the time, I post.
Once in awhile I well correct a misconception or attempt to be humorus.
I always attempt to be accurate and helpful, even when it sounds like advertising.
As a distributor, only one time has someone contacted me to purchase anything, and then it was another distributor from the other side of the state. And once I connected two customers who could mutually help eachother with some old equipment.
I am not here for any reason other than to learn and pass on what I know, to help somone else.
I would like to thank all of you who I have learned something from. (Everyone pat yourself on the back now.)
It generally is not too difficult to know when someone is here to help and share thier knowledge.

First off, Tim, thanks for your kind words.

Marketing can be a fine line. Truly ingenious marketing is when you are being marketed to but don't realize it.

When it comes to viewing posts, I typically look at the topic headings and read anything that may be of interest. I will tend to stay away from specific manufacturer questions, for one, I will probably not be able to contribute in answering the post because I lack the knowledge of other manufacturer's products.

I will only post to an existing thread if I can answer their question or if I have a definite opinion to express.

In talking about Entertron's products, I have learned from past mistakes, and choose my words carefully. I am obviously biased to my company's products. I know what side my bread is buttered on. Personally I believe that we are doing things differently than every manufacturer and feel strongly that we offer the best solutions for OEMs. That isn't merely talking about hardware and software...but about concepts.

I recently modified two of our "propaganda" pages...with the following guarantee...





When you are able to provide information in a post that not only benefits the poster, but anyone who views it...that is when you have accomplished something.

When a question is posed or a comment is made that relates to something you do...that opens the door for you to respond...and provide specifics.

If someone is looking for a solution for their application, I may provide some additional options, but the most detail I will be able to provide is on what I know.

I see no problem with Tim's post. Tim was providing a post that was to inform everyone of something new. What was Tim to gain from it? He doesn't work for Unitronics. Have to wonder if he gets a commission...lol. Just kidding. He uses their product and likes it. We have customer's like that too.

It is great when you are the vendor of choice...not because you the lowest cost or a specific name brand...you are the choice because of the relationship you have developed with your customer. In a world of "it's got to be the cheapest" this is one of the most rewarding things I experience during my work day. Another would be providing a solution for a customer. Anyone can sell components...not everyone can provide solutions. My greatest daily reward is Jesus, but that is a whole other topic.

There is nothing better than to receive a referral from an existing customer...it is a qualified lead that doesn't cost you anything. The investment is in the Goodwill you have created with your customers.

During a recent poll that Casey did regarding what PLC would you like to try next if you had a choice...I was pleasently surprised that 9 people selected us. That is probably a result of people's curiosity regarding comments that I have made or information provided. When you boil it all down, that is a form of marketing.

When, the information you are providing is related to the topic, but specific to your product, it is near impossible to separate the two...try separating a red water solution and blue water solution once they have been mixed. I would call this indirect marketing...you are providing information, based on your knowledge.

One manufacturer's input.

God Bless,

Great topic, Steve!...

This forum should be a huge benefit to any manufacturer. You can't beat 'real-world' opinions from end users. I'm sure there are plenty of manufacturers/distributors that simply 'lurk' here to glean information.

I think there is a difference between 'advertising' and 'recommending'. I see the majority of posts here as 'recommendations', even when they're from distributors. What's to differentiate between a distributor of one brand, or an end user who only uses one brand? For each, their brand is 'the best' (although for different reasons).

Most of us can spot the obvious advertisement post, and Phil does a good job of making them disappear quickly...

Mike (elevmike) has taken over my role as spokesman for 'a certain brand', but I do not see this as advertisement. It is simply an opinion from an end-user. It is up to the reader to research Mike's other posts to determine if his opinion has any merit (and to realize that Mike is indeed an end-user). This is the same type of research someone should be doing even OUTSIDE the forum... :nodi:

Personally, I value the input here from manufacturers, reps., etc. because they have the possibility of knowing (or finding out) 'behind the scenes' info that might otherwise take forever to find out by calling tech support. I haven't called any tech support line in YEARS, because I can always get an answer here.

• When you call tech support, you get ONE person on the other end...

• When you call PLCS.net, you get a conference call with HUNDREDS of people on the other end...

How's that for an advertisement?... :site:



-Eric

When you call PLCS.net, you get a conference call with HUNDREDS of people on the other end...

Click to expand...

Not only that, but I see a very high quality in the answers here. I happened to go to control.com the other day, and I saw some of the same questions that are posted here (probably the same person), but a lot of the answers were just outright wrong. I don't know if it's because it's an older site and gets a lot more exposure or what, but I wouldn't trust a lot of what I read there.

It's a fine line...

Good question Steve. I often ponder that one myself...

If Timothy's post had not come from him it might not have survived. I only say that because I've read his other 'pro vendor' posts enough to know(or better said, I believe him when he says...) he doesn't work/sell/profit from their stuff. A disclaimer may have helped other readers who may not know him.

Had it been from a newly registered or 'guest' poster I probably(ok, definitely ) would have deleted it...

The bottom line is that the sole purpose of the forum is to help people share plc knowledge. When reading a post I try to see what the motive of the poster is. If it is to share knowledge I 'generally' let it slide. If it is to sell product I 'generally' remove it. I believe he was just being 'enthusiastic' about a company/product he believes in... but it's a real fine line.

Speaking of advertising... another batch of polos just came back from the embroiderer. Black, maroon, forest green and navy. I'll post them in the store soon...

Enjoy,

Phil came CLOSE to crossing the advert line;

He mentioned some articles for sale, BUT, he did not give pricing, nor did he say those articles are better than those offered by others.
Had he given a link to those items, that could be construed as an advert, or...would it??

I personally prefer the maroon bricks over the navy modular units, but that is because I have never used the navy modular units.

Disclaimer: I, uh...

I think the forum is, for the most part, self policed and I admire the folks here for that.

I'll shut up now.

Rod

Personally I have no problem with the kind of post that is a "one-off announcement" of a significant product release or event that will be of interest. Particuarly if it is the kind of information that is time limited and not likely to reach end-users via normal advertising/marketing channels.

I happened to go to control.com the other day, and I saw some of the same questions that are posted here (probably the same person), but a lot of the answers were just outright wrong.

Click to expand...

I saw those posts as well and I must say it shook me up a bit. I'd be a bit worried about trusting information in an area where I had zero knowledge after reading some of those replies.

On the other hand, I guess we shouldn't be surprised, anybody who thinks about it for more than 2 seconds knows that you'll find more incorrect rubbish in five minutes on the Internet than if you spend a week in your local library. As in any walk of life, only more so on the Internet, it helps to know who you're dealing with - here we do (usually)! :site: