Analogue signal cables and Frequency drive cables

userxyz

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My Question is:

We always have to earth the sheath (protection around the wire's for EMC) on one side of the analogue cable.

With Frequency Drives, the Cables connected from the drives to the motors, we must do this on both side's.

Why analogue signals on one side en motor cables from drives on 2 side's ?
 
With the analog signal, you're wanting to stop any outside interference with the signal, so you ground at one side to keep from inducing current/voltage in your wires.

With the VFD, you're trying to minimize the noise created by the drive, you're not worried about induced current/voltage.
 
I'm confused too

This is something that's always bugged me (a little). Whilst I always follow the manufacturer's grounding recommendations and understand the problems associated with ground loops, without the return path creating a "shorted turn" to load the incoming energy, doesn't this mean that the resultant screening is electrostatic only?
 
okay

okay, but can u explain why the noise is minimized with earth on both sides and inteference is minimizen with analogue when earht on one side ?

thanks for your help
 
I'm not an electrical engineer so this may not be exactly right. But this is what I have put together over the years.

Tying a shield to ground on both sides provides a more effective shield. You have a better chance of containing or rejecting noise in this configuration. However, grounding on both sides also provides a path for current to flow if you have a voltage difference on both sides of the cable.

So with signal wires it is the lesser of two evils. Grounding the shieled on one side provides some protection against radiated emissions for the same reason that antennas can pull a signal out of the air. Gounding on one side also prevents a ground path in the shield. If ground currents flow in the shield these currents will themselves produce radiated emissions that will be coupled into the conductors you are trying to keep the noise out of. Because of the small distance from the shield to the conductors you will get VERY good coupling.

With motor power leads you are much more interested in containing the noise. Let's face it, you couldn't induce enough noise into a motor cable with shield currents to do any harm even if you wanted to. You just want to make sure the noise generated by the drive PWM doesn't get radiated to the outside world. So you go with the more effective shielding configuration.

I hope this helps (and is at least partially right).
Keith
 
Grounding the cable screen at both ends tends to be done when the noise frequency is high (> 1MHz). At high frequencies, double grounding will give less impedance to the noise. It is often used for inverter cables (which have high frequency common mode noise) and communications cables with high bit rates. Double grounding does have the possibility of creating a ground loop though, which is undesirable. Therefore single grounding of the shield is normally done at lower frequencies, where impedance is less of a problem and the risk of ground loops can be eliminated.
 
On the analog line you only tie to ground at one end to prevent a ground feed back loop. On a frequency drive cable both grounds should be at the same potential.
 
I think the key piece of missing information here to make this more understandable is that ground is often not a good conductor. As a result you can have different ground voltage levels even within a distance of 100 feet.

When you ground both ends of a shield or any other kind of good conductor, you form a good conductor for ground currents (most of them probably unrelated to the signal you are working on). These currents can be surprisingly high and can generate unwanted fields in the shield thus inducing unwanted signals and noise into your signal wires.

In the case of drive/motor leads, the shield is made to carry high currents. It is also important for the motor frame and the drive frame to be at the same ground potential in order to avoid nuisance drive faults. The motor leads are already full of high frequency components so a little induced noise from the shield is hardly any concern. And the motor is not particularly sensitive to noise anyway since it is primarily a large inductor.

Just as a footnote to this. I have seen ground potentials between adjacent buildings in an industrial site with over 30 volts difference in potential. Attempting to ground the two together in one instance involved over 400 amps of ground current, most of it at 60Hz, of course.
 
Grounding Questions

Dick

A few questions and clarification. I have heard horror stories about grounding and some of the problems that can occur. Fortunately I have not had to deal with them nor overcome them.

DickDV said:
I think the key piece of missing information here to make this more understandable is that ground is often not a good conductor. As a result you can have different ground voltage levels even within a distance of 100 feet.

When you ground both ends of a shield or any other kind of good conductor, you form a good conductor for ground currents (most of them probably unrelated to the signal you are working on). These currents can be surprisingly high and can generate unwanted fields in the shield thus inducing unwanted signals and noise into your signal wires.
QUESTION OK so the lood and resulting current in a shield when grounded at both ends can be a result of potential diffference between the ground points. That is most illuminating.

In the case of drive/motor leads, the shield is made to carry high currents. It is also important for the motor frame and the drive frame to be at the same ground potential in order to avoid nuisance drive faults. The motor leads are already full of high frequency components so a little induced noise from the shield is hardly any concern. And the motor is not particularly sensitive to noise anyway since it is primarily a large inductor.
QUESTION This is the reason I would take it that a VFD and all associated "pieces" should have only one ground point.

Just as a footnote to this. I have seen ground potentials between adjacent buildings in an industrial site with over 30 volts difference in potential. Attempting to ground the two together in one instance involved over 400 amps of ground current, most of it at 60Hz, of course.
QUESTION What did you do with it - were you able to find problem(s) and were you able to overcome them?

LAST QUESTION
In theory if EVERYONE had properly installed wiring there would be none of these problems??
Thanks

Dan Bentler
 
leitmotif said:
LAST QUESTION
In theory if EVERYONE had properly installed wiring there would be none of these problems??
Thanks

Dan Bentler

You are correct.

I predict the problem with 400 amps of ground current was from a grounded phase or an open delta which is my pet peeve.

Today's VFD's look at the DC bus and output voltages to ground. They are capable of shutting the drive off, hopefully preventing the drive from self destructing if the motor or leads were to be grounded. This is also why the motors need their frame grounded to the drive ground. Running the fourth wire insures the motor is at the drive ground potential. Many times machinery is not grounded and tying the motor frame to the mounting does not set the frame at ZERO volts. I have seen 25 to 40 volts difference between drives and motors. I have been called out to ivestigate why the motors are causing a tingling sensation when they are touched.

The anomolies caused by VFD's, especially todays PWM drives could fill its own forum. Every engineer and tech that has to deal with them all have their own unique HORROR story of problems associated with PWM drives.

Just my $00.02 on the matter.
 
I am not sure I understood most of the answers offered.

Whether an AC motor is connected with a drive, through a contactor or a switch is technically irrelevant, most codes require AC (above 50v) devices to be connected to a "source" ground for safety reasons...ie to prevent shock hazards etc.

In most (but not all) cases analog(ue) signals are low voltage/low current dc signals that are susceptible to "induced current" (also called noise)produced from AC voltages and/or harmonics. Since analog(ue) devices are low voltage/low current they are not (by code) required to be grounded because they are not a safety issue.

Even with a "GOOD" ground system there could be a small AC current flowing, sometimes its generated thru harmonics so isnt detected by many multimeters unless they are true RMS incorporating frequency capabilities....it depends.

The point is; with analog(ue) signals if you connect both ends "IF THERE IS ANY AC VOLTAGE/CURRENT" on the ground bus it can induce a signal into the analog(ue) wiring which can affect the accuracy of the signal.

The reason you connect just one end is to eliminate a "loop" and the shield can act as a drain instead of being an inductor.
 
Dan Bentler, we ran the usual size ground conductor along with the motor leads in the conduit to the motor and then I had the plant people install a new copper ground conductor between the building steel in each building that was large enough to handle about 800 amps, just to be sure.

That seemed to take care of the problem. And yes, it was one of those cursed floating delta AC networks!!!
 
Dick

Thanks for the answer. Which I guess brings up another question
What is a floating delta network
If it is properly connected why do you still get heavy current in the ground?

Dan Bentler
 
Technically, floating delta is misleading. A Delta configuration does not have a ground that is connected to the supply...hence the term floating. It refers to a 3 wire 3 phase connection.

1u.jpg
 

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