Simple question

Cryogen

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Join Date
Oct 2005
Location
NH
Posts
151
Here a simple question.. basics kill me ;)

I need to find out the power consumption of our control panel. The only AC consumption is to a 24V power supply.. We use this one. The power supply shows this:

Input
100 - 120 VAC ~ 3.3A
200 - 240 VAC ~ 2.0A

Output
24V, 5A

Is it true that our KW consumption is 0.37W for 115V and .46KW for 230V?
 
YES, watts = volts X amps.

Now the calculations you made will be FULL LOAD AC watts. Actual power consumed depends on the actual load. The Full DC power will be 5A X 24V = 120 watts or 0.12 KW. You have to consider the watt losses in the power supply and that is why the primary or AC input has a larger watt rating. Also, that supply is not very efficient.

When calculating total power in a control/panel, it is a good idea to calculate full or total power. Sometimes it is called worst case.
 
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Thanks.. I get so confused with AC power calculations - true power, apparent power, reactive power..
 
Something isn't being 100% truthful with you. The link you posted says the model you have is supposed to be 84% efficient. The numbers you posted seem a far cry from that. So either the manufacturers brocure is not being truthful or the current you listed is not just real current. I don't know enough about power supply design to be able to make a useful guess. I thought switch mode power supplies were supposed to have a pretty good power factor so it doesn't seem like this would be a reactive power issue.


Keith
 
Watts = (volts x amps x cos phi) for sinusiodal waveforms only.

As already stated, the efficiency is 84% so the total Watts used by the panel is 120/0.84 = 143W
 
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If that supply was actually 84% efficient, the primary amps would be a tad bit lower. It would be 1.2 amps at the 115 volts and .62 amps at the 230 volt. Total input power would be 142.8 watts. Provided this is a totally resistive circuit. The spec sheet does not give continuous input amps, just inrush amps.
 
Originally posted by L D[AR2,P#0.0]:

Watts = (volts x amps x cos phi) for sinusiodal waveforms only.

True. However, right or wrong, the general inference in the US is that an AC current rating is assumed to be an RMS rating unless specifically noted. I think much of the effect of a non-sinusoidal current waveform is already accounted for in the RMS calculation. So, while the number may not be perfect, it shouldn't be off by a factor of 3.

Originally posted by Leadfoot:

The spec sheet does not give continuous input amps, just inrush amps.

I noticed that, too. Interesting, eh? I'm not sure what Cryogen's power supply current number is supposed to mean. As
L D[AR2,P#0.0] may be inferring, the rating may indicate a peak AC current at rated power supply output after inrush. But then the value should be higher for 230 VAC operation.

I'm kind of confused by the rating myself.

Keith
 
I agree the current will be RMS, it's just that you can't multiply the rms voltage by the rms current and the efficiency of the device to get watts.

(Note the spec sheets give typical values of 2.6A/115VAC, 1.6A/230VAC, the QA sheet shows a measured value of 1.208A/230VAC)
 
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Humor me. I'm thick some days.

Originally posted by L D[AR2,P#0.0]:

I agree the current will be RMS, it's just that you can't multiply the rms voltage by the rms current and the efficiency of the device to get watts.

Why not? The RMS calculation will yield the continuous DC equivalent of the input value. Let's look at a simple doide front end (since it will have a near unity power factor so the phase angle falls out) and disregard the huge harmonic content. Under light loading the diode will only be conducting for a short period of time near the center of the AC waveform. The RMS value of the waveform will be a small value even though the instantaneous current can be a very high value. This RMS current times the RMS voltage will yield the RMS input into the diode.

Using this same example with a transformer in front of it will produce the same result considering the correct power factor for the transformer (which will be horrible since it is so lightly loaded).

No matter how you look at it efficiency is defined as power out divided by power in. So power out times efficiency must be power in. Real power in is the real portion of the RMS voltage times the RMS current. The most common components that will change the phase angle of the voltage or current are capacitors and inductors. But that still doesn't change the fact that a correctly calculated RMS current and voltage and a properly applied power factor should yield real power.

Keith
 
Keith - you cannot ignore the harmonic content. The total power is the sum of the individual powers contributed by each harmonic viz:

P = Vdc.Idc + V(1).I(1).cos(phi1)/2 + V(2).I(2).cos(phi2)/2 + .....

where V(n).I(n).cos(phin) refers to the nth harmonic in the waveform. One method of doing the maths is to go down the fourier route. I haven't been there for a while but it is possible.

(Note that due to the time of day here I will continue contributing [if necessary] in approx 12 hours)

Best Regards, Simon
 
True, LD[AR2,P#0.0].
Switching supplies are extremly efficient on the output side, but the configuration of the input side almost always leads to very high current demands from the source at only the peaks of the source waveform, which introduces all kinds of interesting harmonics and notching.

Another point, is that switching supplies become increasingly less efficient as the output loading decreases. Their true 'manufacturers efficiency rating' only applies when the supply is loaded to capacity, as the loading decreases, the efficiency also decreases, usually drastically. Which is one reason that sizing a computer power supply accurately (and using the new ATX 12V 2.2 Spec supplies) is important if you are concerned with energy efficiency.
 
While I can't directly with argue the previous two posts, largely because they are right, this would mean that the harmonic content goes up so high that the input power actually triples as the load goes to zero.

Let's momentarily assume that as rdrast said the power supply is rated at full load, which makes perfect sense. At that point, as Leadfoot calculated, we would expect about 1.2A in at 115 Vac to meet the published specs on the sheet. But as Cryogen posted initially, he has a line on the power supply itself that states the input current at up to 120 Vac is 3.3A. Based on the above posts, this would mean that the harmonic content increases to such a level at light loads that we burn up twice the peak real work-producing power in losses. That's a nasy hit, if that's the case. If that really isn't the case then the 3.3A value listed on the power supply is wrong or the peak efficiency published on the sheet is a bit high.

Keith
 
That is a nasty hit. absolutely. It comes from drawing massive current at only the peak of the incoming sine-wave. Don't take my word for it, do you know who actually came up with the ATX 12V 2.x spec?
Google.
The primary difference with the 2.x spec for computer power-supply, is that is requires harmonic filtering on the input, which incidentally provides an internal network that reduces the harmonic energy transmitted to the source, and brings the power factor closer to unity (never unity on a switching supply until we discover alternate physics). A great deal of the losses in switching supplies operating at non-capacity loads, is that the front-end must continuously keep the driver section pumped to deliver the load-sections nearly instantaneous demands. If the load section is lightly loaded, the mid section is still responsible to deliver instantaneous current to maintin output voltage. Hence, the mid section ( actually, the high-voltage up-converter) must dump it's extra capacity somewhere. Sort of like chopper's on an AC Drive's DC buss.

Even as I recall, it wasn't more than 10 years ago, that switching supplies weren't used in industry, simply because they absolutely, positively required a guaranteed minimum load on the primary output. Without that minimum load, the supplies would oscillate wildly in voltage output, and would destroy the connected equipment. Today, switching supplies are commonplace, but they still suffer the problem of regulating the output... and they still require a minimum load. The minimum load requirement has dropped significantly, but at the price of switching the minimum output load to an internal section of the power supply.

Really, a modern switching power supply is an awful lot like an AC Vector drive, there is an input section, which generally rectifies the incoming voltage and stores the energy in a very (very) small capacitor bank. Then there is an inverter section, which takes the available DC 'buss' voltage and turns it into a relatively high frequency, high voltage AC (square) waveform. Then the converter section (not a part of an AC drive) rectifies the (now very high voltage, low current) mid sections waveform into very high, but short duration pulses, that are filtered before sending to the attached load. There is a finite frequency that can be filtered and regulated, and transformed (via L-C filters) to present a suitable voltage to the load. Now, where does the excess power go? The regulators charge-pump (to the filter) has a limited bandwidth (as do the filters). In an ideal world, the demand on the incoming supply would reduce... but, that would result in the inverter section starving to maintain it's available charge (for a peak demand) These aren't very big capacitors after all. The inverter must always maintain enough charge to keep the converter satisfied at maximum demand (Again, think of a PC, which might go from an idle state of 5VDC (or nowadays less, 3.3VDC, which is regulated down even further to the core voltage of 1.1 to 2.8VDC)) that is only using, oh, say, 30 watts (6 amps).... You wake the PC up from sleep, the CPU doesn't gradually wake up, it fires full force, so now, instead of 30 watts, it demands (in one cycle) 160 watts. If the mid section isn't sufficiently charged to deliver that power, you PC faults out. So, switching supplies will internally shunt off power (at the mid (high-Frequency) stage. Where does the reserve power go? burned off in those big resistors mounted on the heat sinks.

Switching supplies are inherently more efficient than linear supplies, but at a cost. The linear supply is burning almost no energy at no load, but extremely high energy at high load (because a linear supply must essentially shunt current to ground to maintain it's output). A switching supply is almost exactly the inverse. It must shunt (near full load) current when lightly loaded, and virtually none when operating at capacity.

--- Edit ---
Somehow, I expect flames on this one.


kamenges said:
While I can't directly with argue the previous two posts, largely because they are right, this would mean that the harmonic content goes up so high that the input power actually triples as the load goes to zero.

Let's momentarily assume that as rdrast said the power supply is rated at full load, which makes perfect sense. At that point, as Leadfoot calculated, we would expect about 1.2A in at 115 Vac to meet the published specs on the sheet. But as Cryogen posted initially, he has a line on the power supply itself that states the input current at up to 120 Vac is 3.3A. Based on the above posts, this would mean that the harmonic content increases to such a level at light loads that we burn up twice the peak real work-producing power in losses. That's a nasy hit, if that's the case. If that really isn't the case then the 3.3A value listed on the power supply is wrong or the peak efficiency published on the sheet is a bit high.

Keith
 
I need to do some reading on switching power supply design. I remember the days of the sawtooth voltage outputs. But I thought that had much more to do wit houtput section design than the high voltage intermediate section design. I thought the early designs had too much hysteresis or filtering built into the output driver for the amount of internal capacitance and a single intermediate to output section pulse caused too much charge to enter the output section, jacking the voltage up. But I digress.

You stated:

Originally posted by rdrast:

A switching supply is almost exactly the inverse. It must shunt (near full load) current when lightly loaded, and virtually none when operating at capacity.

Given this statement is fully correct, I still don't see how a fully loaded power supply would draw 1.2 amps but would draw 3.3 amps at some other point in the operating region. One would expect that any type of reasonable shunting stategy would either remain constant or increase at the same rate as the output decreases. This increase is much worse than that.

Keith
 
That totally depends on how the manufacturer specifies their supplies (most unfortunately). There are no standards in the world of general purpose switching supplies. The ratings might be FLC (fully loaded capacity), or not. This is an area that has no comparative standards. The generic design of switching supplies however, does require a higher (much higher) loss when operating at less than load, as the input section must continuously deliver the full capacity of the entire assembly... the inverter section must always be ready to supply a peak power demand, which results in notching of the incoming waveform. Why the converter/inverter sections might draw more power when lightly loaded? Dunno... maybe that is the inrush charging power of the system... Mebbe because it simply requires a larger capacity 'dump' circuit than the final regulator/filter is tuned for. Depending on the switch-controller used, and the final filtering, under various load conditions, you can actually end up with an internal standing wave (just like in RF). If the load isn't matched to the source, you end up wasting more power than you are sourcing. Ultimately, it really depends on the switching controller and final output filter that you are using.


kamenges said:
I need to do some reading on switching power supply design. I remember the days of the sawtooth voltage outputs. But I thought that had much more to do wit houtput section design than the high voltage intermediate section design. I thought the early designs had too much hysteresis or filtering built into the output driver for the amount of internal capacitance and a single intermediate to output section pulse caused too much charge to enter the output section, jacking the voltage up. But I digress.

You stated:



Given this statement is fully correct, I still don't see how a fully loaded power supply would draw 1.2 amps but would draw 3.3 amps at some other point in the operating region. One would expect that any type of reasonable shunting stategy would either remain constant or increase at the same rate as the output decreases. This increase is much worse than that.

Keith
 

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