OT - Employment contracts

Hi,
I've been asked to sign a new employment contract. It's for a little more money than what I'm on now but I have to give 3 months notice if I ever want to leave! Is this normal? If I did ever want to leave would having to wait 3 months put off any futre employers?
Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Cheers

Rich

When i moved from hourly paid to a staff position(Big mistake on my part), i also changed to 3 months notice.

I was involved recently in the hiring of additional maintenance personnel, the best guy didnt get the job because we couldnt wait 3 months - bear in mind hourly paid notice is one week at our company.

Unless you can seriously gain from this - i wouldnt bother.

Would your employer agree to give you 3 months notice before termination? It is not like you're a bloody senior exec, at least my assumption. I would ask them if things got tight how much notice you would get.
I am lucky that we don't have contracts (exempt salary) so I can walk out anytime. I did that once while I was an hourly electrician. Told them I quit and picked up my tools and out the door. Satisfying for sure. Best move I ever did and I got a job a month later. I've been there 23 years with 2 steps to a salary position with an office with a door.

Marshy said:

Hi,
I've been asked to sign a new employment contract. It's for a little more money than what I'm on now but I have to give 3 months notice if I ever want to leave! Is this normal? If I did ever want to leave would having to wait 3 months put off any futre employers?
Any thoughts would be appreciated.

Cheers

Rich

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This is just another way for an employer to own you legally.

If you like the thought of that, go ahead and sign.

Employment law is a bit of a nightmare.

Remember though that if you give three months notice they can ask you to leave straight away but would have to pay you the full notice period, however they can put you on gardening leave. Basically you sit and home and get paid as normal until the notice period expires.

They have to give you three months notice unless there are other reasons for your dismissal, i.e. gross misconduct or similar.

You could walk out without any notice and they could legally challenge you but most employers won't as it is not worth the aggravation and cost, unless you are a top exec. who could be taking secrets etc.

If you are really the person that someone wants they would be prepared to wait the three months or you could try to come to an arrangement with your existing employer. Bearing in mind they won't be so keen to let you go to a competitor.

Most UK employers ask for a notice period of one pay cycle. But three months in not uncommon and in some cases of management six months.

Jon R said:

Employment law is a bit of a nightmare.

Remember though that if you give three months notice they can ask you to leave straight away but would have to pay you the full notice period, however they can put you on gardening leave. Basically you sit and home and get paid as normal until the notice period expires.

They have to give you three months notice unless there are other reasons for your dismissal, i.e. gross misconduct or similar.

You could walk out without any notice and they could legally challenge you but most employers won't as it is not worth the aggravation and cost, unless you are a top exec. who could be taking secrets etc.

If you are really the person that someone wants they would be prepared to wait the three months or you could try to come to an arrangement with your existing employer. Bearing in mind they won't be so keen to let you go to a competitor.

Most UK employers ask for a notice period of one pay cycle. But three months in not uncommon and in some cases of management six months.

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I won't pretend to be familiar with British labor law or practices.

You also do not explain the consequences if you do not sign.

BUT
What do you get for losing your ability to control 3 months of your life? Is it just the additional money -- if so how much additional money -- one percent tell em to keep it -- 10 percent well that is a different thing.

Dan Bentler

Thanks for the replies. The reason for the new contract is we've just be taken over by a bigger company. The worst thing about the contract is that it also states that I must work an average of 48hours a week. (But my manager says he doesn't expect me to work the 48hours???).
I'm currently on 37.5 + OT. I've worked out that if I were to work the 10.5 hours extra a week on my current contract I'd be £2145 better off on the new contract.
I'm a control engineer so I'm not in a managerial role. If I was the only one (which I am at present, we currently have 2 vacancies) then I can understand why they may want to put me on a 3 month notice period.
I've only been in this job a couple of years, we had unions to sort out this stuff with my previous employer so I'm not looking forward to the meeting I have with HR tomorrow!

Thanks once again

Slightly lost on a few points, over what period would the 2145 pounds be? If you sign a contract for 48 hours then expect to work that many, and is it 48 hours salaried, no OT just flat rate over the 48 or is OT still involved?

Not being in the UK not sure how unions are there but here if a plant has a union and a company takes over the union is still there and involved.

Remember that contracts are a two-way thing: they bind both parties who sign them.

If you have to give 3 month's notice, then the very least I'd expect is that your employer would have to give you 3 month's notice as well. Anything less is unreasonable. By and large English law protects people who have been duped in to signing away basic or reasonable rights. I'd guess that if this had to be tested in court because of a dispute between you and the employer, equality would enforced. Of course, as someone else pointed out, if you've broken the contract by being drunk, or fighting, or whatever, then they have the moral high ground over you and out you go that day! I have to give three month's notice to my company, but in practice this doesn't mean I have to serve that period. I guess it depends on what relationship you have with your manager/company/HR but some can be very flexible. Sure, perhaps they could insist on you serving every minute of the notice period, but what if you misbehave during this? What will they do? Sack you? Without knowing any details I'd look at this as an improvement in your employment contract.

Hours worked and 'average' hours worked are tricky. So an average of 48 hours per week has to be achieved, but how is it measured? Monthly? Quarterly? Over your entire career? What is the maximum you can work? If you can't work more than 50 hours (say) then your flexibility for working less than 48 is pretty limited. On the other hand if you can do a double-shift one day, does this mean you can take a whole day off every week?

You mention this is a takeover situation. There must be other existing employees who have this same form of contract. Try to contact some of them and establish how it works in practice. Once again, the law will always take in to account what has been created as the common standard even if that's not what is written on paper.

Finally, most reputable companies really do not want to take out lawsuits against employees or ex-employees. It's expensive, unproductive, bad for moral inside, and bad for publicity outside. I can't imagine they are creating a situation for themselves which leads to this.

regards

Ken

work an average of 48hours a week. (But my manager says he doesn't expect me to work the 48hours???).

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I'm pretty sure they cant inforce that.

10.5 hours extra a week on my current contract I'd be £2145 better off on the new contract.

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If you stayed at 37.5,how much extra would 10.5 hours earn you in Overtime.

I'm a control engineer so I'm not in a managerial role.

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My role now is a control engineer, i asked why the job had a 3 month notice period and i was told that in Automotive this is standard practice.

The maximum you can be work is 48hours a week if you have signed up to the working time directive, however, if you have opted out in theory there is no limit.

Most people I know have opted out to enable them to work overtime.

leitmotif, if you accept the job and work at your new position and salary but do not sign contract you are deemed to have accepted the conditions, unless an objection has been submitted in writing.

Jon R said:

The maximum you can be work is 48hours a week if you have signed up to the working time directive, however, if you have opted out in theory there is no limit.

Most people I know have opted out to enable them to work overtime.

leitmotif, if you accept the job and work at your new position and salary but do not sign contract you are deemed to have accepted the conditions, unless an objection has been submitted in writing.

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Gee that sounds like the IRS (Internal Revenue Service) here in the states. Better yet shangai here in the states - the British Navy called it impressment (??) ie press gangs ??? You are now on board the ship and you will work.

Dan Bentler

Here in the states if you are an "at will" employee you can leave for no reason, and they can dismiss you for no reason. If you have a contract, it can be enforced so long as the terms are "reasonalbe". Whether or not that concept applies in the UK I have no idea, but in my experience labor laws in Europe protect the employee even more than those in the US do.

I would suggest that three months notice is excessive, and that if they insist on that you should insist on three months notice and three months pay if they dismiss you. (Except if you are dismissed for cause, which means you slug the boss or commit some kind of egregious offense).

Agreeing to work 48 hours for 40 hours pay is obnoxious. If this is an hourly position they can't do that. If it is salary they can.

I would also suggest you update your resume and start looking for better employment. Avioid signing the agreement. This strikes me as an outfit that is actively seeking to exploit its employees. You can look forward to a lot more abuse in the future if this is their attitude during the honeymoon period. My motto was always a fair days pay for a fair days work. That served me well for 20 years, and even though my employees were there to make money for me, I always felt I treated them fairly and with respect. This outfit doesn't seem like a place I would want to spend ten or twenty years!

Tom Jenkins said:

Agreeing to work 48 hours for 40 hours pay is obnoxious. If this is an hourly position they can't do that. If it is salary they can.

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I'm not sure that is the case, without more detail of course we are all guessing.

I have worked at places where they pay a better rate and in the main the people work the normal hours, but the rate is inclusive of additional hours where needed by the company.

So basically the company is covering for, say 48 hours, before they have to pay additional and expect the engineer to complete his work on time without the need for additional paid hours above that.

If the job needs 8 hours, takes 8 hours, if it needs 10.5, take 10.5.

I really really HATE salary because it gives the company the ability to work you to death for no extra $. All very well if 'the job takes 10.5 hours' but if your only being paid for 8 and they constantly overload you its the best way to lose employees.

I switched from a large company to a much smaller company a couple of years back and can't beleive the difference. Now I am hourly and paid straight time OT, to me the best of both worlds. If I put in a 16 hour day then at least I get paid for it. I'm also 'at will' so as long as I am valued they will keep me, if ever they do something I dont like i am free to leave to go to another job.

If the contract Marshy is asked to sign is indeed salary and they want 3 months notice I would go find another job! It sounds like they are going to squeeze and squeeze knowing that other employers wont wait 3 months to hire him on.

I used to work in the UK and unions are virtually non-existant nowadays. As such employers have become more and more overbearing. Pay & working conditions here in the US compared to the UK are a million times better.