Did I fix it or what?

Hi everybody!

I had two START bottons (monitor side and operator side) on the machine (Carruther-Slicer). Two different inputs from them to lautch one output. On last week the operator side's botton said "I don't wonna work any more". And production supervisor put second guy to push the monitor botton by operator request (every 20 sec) For the past week first shift including 6 mechanics, 4 technicians, 3 supervisors and two engineers could not fix it.
I work second shift (6 mechanics - two iust clocks in/out, and one damn supervisor). I have accidently asked him: "Why that machine is operated like this? What wrong with that botton". He said: "Oh, first shift top specialists are breaking their heads on it, they guess the input for that button burn up and waiting for new PLC module (Mitsubishi)". I said "But second botton is working, why they did not put the wire from the operator's botton to monitor botton's input, and why the bootons to start the same output use different input?" "Ah, do ya wanna do that, go ahead, do that" - he said me unbelievebly (like to ****). Gonna be a lunch time for production and I got it. Now it works.
I didn't dig ddeply, just put two wires on same input.

The question.
Why the manufacture has maden wiring like this - two inputs (wires have a same signal then bottons are pushing) to lautch one output?

And, did I fix it or what?

PS. I've been in America for 1 year (Green Card Lottery winner). I've got Master degree in Engineering Technology (6 years education in Moscow (Russia), evaluated by WES in Washington, DC). Have a first job over here like a Plant Mechanic I, trying to kick my supervisor's *** to make me a technician - no way. Looking for an engineering job everywhere (machine deisign, tribology and lubricating).
Have the second Diploma in Financial Management (Used to work like a financial analist in a bank last 1 year in my county).

My country www.kz

I am sure everyone reading your post was amazed. Not at your technicals skills but your stupidity. I have never seen your machine or plc but I know that if those two buttons went to two different inputs, it was for a very good reason. Get down there now and take the wire back out and get someone that can read the plc program to sort it out. Who knows what safety features you have just over ridden. The machine now thinks it has been started from a different location and may act accordingly. Hurry up, do it now, before someone dies.

There are at least two explanations for the actions that the people on the first shift took.

1. They are incredidbly stupid, can't conceive of a simple, obvious, elegant solution to a fairly common problem, and should be fired immediately so that you can be promoted to fill the position.

2. They know something about the design of the machine and its control system that you don't, and opted not to do the quick and dirty fix because it might put the operators, the machine, or the quality of the product at risk.

What did you do to verify that explanation #2 is not the correct one?

I'm just curious. What company is this?? It sounds like they need some re-structuring. I understand you have only been in America a short time , spell check is fairly easy to operate. Reading your post nearly killed me...

Any time you undertake to troubleshoot a system, you should follow a rigorous procedure, and don't skip any steps. And any time you make a "quick fix" make sure all parties involved know it is only temporary, and make sure you go back and do it right as soon as possible. Quick fixes tend to come back and haunt you later.

For any troubleshooting:
1) make a written statement of the symptoms

2) make a written statement of the time sequence of the appearance of the symptoms

3) start at one end of the event chain for the control function, and work your way ONE STEP AT A TIME back to the other end. It doesn't matter which end you start at, just don't skip ANY steps. For your example, you could have started at the PLC output that the switch ultimately controls, or you could have started at the switch.

4) for each event in the chain, ask what it does, and what is supposed to make it happen. For example, if you started at the PLC output, find out what internal bits make that output come on. Then find out what inputs make that logic come on. Then find out from the electrical schematics what device makes that input come on. Then find out where the device gets it's power. Then find out if the power is available. Then ..........

By the time you have gone through this process you will KNOW what is causing the malfunction,, and you will know how to fix it!

Shortcuts cause disaster. How would your bank have reacted if you sent out the loan approval before doing the evaluation on the collateral? If you short cut in banking, you cost somebody money. If you short cut in our industry, you can cost somebody their LIFE!

In your specific example it looks to me like you didn't fix anything, you just masked the symptoms.

I agree with 'Goody' in his first assesment.
However I beleive that if the second button is dangerous to use.
Then asking some one else to press it while you operate the machine could be far more dangerous.

An accident at Ford Australia...
An automatic unload device failed..
an aditional operator is placed inside the guard to move the part to the conveyor...
This works well fo a while..
The operator looses his concentration.
His overalls catch in the conveyor and he says goodbuy to his right arm as it leaves It's socket.

The better answer to the initial problem...Asuming the fault to be the PLC card.... is to temporarily re-program the Inputs and re-wire so the operator button works as usual.
The remote button is the button that is best left as the faulty one.

I'm accept and agree you have the qualifications in Russia, but the initial fears of most people in any country. Is do those qualifications suit their standards.
They probably do. but human nature falls into the calculations.
My knowledge and abilities and qualifications in australia would probably not be accepted in America. Although those who know me on this site will know I do no what I am talking about.

Goody said:

I am sure everyone reading your post was amazed. Not at your technicals skills but your stupidity. I have never seen your machine or plc but I know that if those two buttons went to two different inputs, it was for a very good reason. Get down there now and take the wire back out and get someone that can read the plc program to sort it out. Who knows what safety features you have just over ridden. The machine now thinks it has been started from a different location and may act accordingly. Hurry up, do it now, before someone dies.

Click to expand...

Thanks for evaluation my mental ability - any way
Savety was not by passed after my movement. Today I'll put wires to their proper positions to let first shift guys to stir their brains.

Sorry for english.
After been in America, native british cuts my ears.

Steve Bailey said:

There are at least two explanations for the actions that the people on the first shift took.

1. They are incredidbly stupid, can't conceive of a simple, obvious, elegant solution to a fairly common problem, and should be fired immediately so that you can be promoted to fill the position.

2. They know something about the design of the machine and its control system that you don't, and opted not to do the quick and dirty fix because it might put the operators, the machine, or the quality of the product at risk.

What did you do to verify that explanation #2 is not the correct one?

Click to expand...

I'm gonna know, why bottons had the different inputs and what the reason. If you push a start botton once the conveyor under the knifeis moving. Before it, there is another conveyor on operators tables, where he puts product properly at the gate on table's conveyor. After he pushs botton second time the gate opens and both conveors belts are moving. After the gates the machine is measuring a length of product to cut it. After the cycle ends, mashine is wating for operator "Come On, Wake up you goddamn slow human"

I'm not gonna be promoted in this plant. It's my first job in America and I hope worstest.

alanc5 said:

I'm just curious. What company is this?? It sounds like they need some re-structuring. I understand you have only been in America a short time , spell check is fairly easy to operate. Reading your post nearly killed me...

Click to expand...

The company is under restructuring (Another company has bought our company). Management, including maintenance supervisors, is running like the roaches at new "boss" to safe their jobs.

Thanks for compliment of my english

Tom Jenkins said:

Any time you undertake to troubleshoot a system, you should follow a rigorous procedure, and don't skip any steps. And any time you make a "quick fix" make sure all parties involved know it is only temporary, and make sure you go back and do it right as soon as possible. Quick fixes tend to come back and haunt you later.

For any troubleshooting:
1) make a written statement of the symptoms

2) make a written statement of the time sequence of the appearance of the symptoms

3) start at one end of the event chain for the control function, and work your way ONE STEP AT A TIME back to the other end. It doesn't matter which end you start at, just don't skip ANY steps. For your example, you could have started at the PLC output that the switch ultimately controls, or you could have started at the switch.

4) for each event in the chain, ask what it does, and what is supposed to make it happen. For example, if you started at the PLC output, find out what internal bits make that output come on. Then find out what inputs make that logic come on. Then find out from the electrical schematics what device makes that input come on. Then find out where the device gets it's power. Then find out if the power is available. Then ..........

By the time you have gone through this process you will KNOW what is causing the malfunction,, and you will know how to fix it!

Shortcuts cause disaster. How would your bank have reacted if you sent out the loan approval before doing the evaluation on the collateral? If you short cut in banking, you cost somebody money. If you short cut in our industry, you can cost somebody their LIFE!

In your specific example it looks to me like you didn't fix anything, you just masked the symptoms.

Click to expand...

Thanks for the answer of my question.

iant said:

I agree with 'Goody' in his first assesment.
However I beleive that if the second button is dangerous to use.
Then asking some one else to press it while you operate the machine could be far more dangerous.

An accident at Ford Australia...
An automatic unload device failed..
an aditional operator is placed inside the guard to move the part to the conveyor...
This works well fo a while..
The operator looses his concentration.
His overalls catch in the conveyor and he says goodbuy to his right arm as it leaves It's socket.

The better answer to the initial problem...Asuming the fault to be the PLC card.... is to temporarily re-program the Inputs and re-wire so the operator button works as usual.
The remote button is the button that is best left as the faulty one.

I'm accept and agree you have the qualifications in Russia, but the initial fears of most people in any country. Is do those qualifications suit their standards.
They probably do. but human nature falls into the calculations.
My knowledge and abilities and qualifications in australia would probably not be accepted in America. Although those who know me on this site will know I do no what I am talking about.

Click to expand...

I have never work like a maintenance mechanic after graduation and before comming to America. I heared about PLC (real PLC) 10 months ago. A few times I asked my supervisor to send me to Allen-Bradly school - no way. I spent a couple hundreds to buy a book about PLC. I've read "PLC tutor" on PLC.net, download the PLC simulator and bought it. I'm gonna learn PLC and get another job for more money.

First shift wanted to extend working botton by putting two wires to operator side thru the mashine. or

Personally I think 1st shift or whoever decided to put a person on the "other side of the machine" to push a button when operator requested was the stupid one. How hard would a miscommunication be to have machine started when operator wasnt ready. At least moving the wire put the machine back in the operators hand. Why it has 2 buttons and 2 inputs to make it run is anyone's guess. Saken technically did nothing more than remove the need for the person pushing the button which "management or whoever" had decided to use.

Saken I believe you have stated you have a Masters Degree in Engineering with something like a minor in Finance.

If all this is true then I have a suggestion, keep that job for now. You must work. Take your time and learn what they may have to offer.

The most important thing you may need to accomplish is your English skills, not that you have to be an expert but you will need to be proficient in speaking and above all writing. As was advised in an earlier post is use spell checker when possible so you will know when words are spelled incorrectly. You can purchase CD Roms for languages that will assist you more in learning proper enunciation. You may want to look into going to local college classes for lessons and options to get credit from your Russian degree transfered to work on a degree or accreditation from here. Also look at the licensing requirements in that state for PE (Professional Engineer).

After its all said and done, if you can show that you have 6 yrs (and passed above all the levels )of higher education PLUS have become proficient in English YOU will not have a problem obtaining a position. The first job is rarely a good job. Learn to network your abilities and build a resume. There are definitely jobs out there for any college graduate that is better than Level 1 Mechanic.

BTW If your studies were in mechanical, then maintain those achievements. PLC's arent a given factor in getting a job, none of the Engineers ( they are mechanical or industrial) at my plant have a clue about electrical or plc's.

Keep reading this site you will find out about 'the learning pit'.
Sorry dont know the http address. Im sure it will be posted shortly.

Read the books. Ask the right questions. People will help.

After 16 years of JINGLISH or JAPLISH ( Japanese English )
I don't care about your spelling.....

Personally I think 1st shift or whoever decided to put a person on the "other side of the machine" to push a button when operator requested was the stupid one. How hard would a miscommunication be to have machine started when operator wasnt ready. At least moving the wire put the machine back in the operators hand. Why it has 2 buttons and 2 inputs to make it run is anyone's guess.

Click to expand...

Ron, you're guilty of the same jump to a conclusion as Saken. You don't know anything about the machine except the limited information provided by Saken. You haven't seen the PLC program. In spite of that, you're willing to assume that wiring the two buttons to independent inputs was an oversight on the part of the OEM, and that the first shift people were too rushed/blind/stupid to see that.

I don't think any of us on this forum are in a position to decide whether what he did was the correct thing to do or not. He appears to have gotten away with it, but that's due more to blind luck than sound judgement on his part.

The first shift's biggest mistake was in not telling the second shift the reasoning that led them to do what they did. That's not a justification for the second shift to make assumptions about their motives or abilities. Let's at least hope that the second shift did a better job of documenting what they did than the first shift.