Can I get some Help on this?Please?

cannonboy10

Member
Join Date
Apr 2003
Location
LOS ANGELES
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Hi guys, thanks for reading this and hope you guys can help me out on this question.

What are some disadvantages for using the "Greater than or Equal to" instruction in a rung to turn an output?

this is what I'm doing in rung #1 and 2 I have two GEQ that each control an output,so I been ask to say what are some of the disadvantages for using this instructions.

Thanks once again and hope you guys can help me out :)
 
Cannonboy10

I am not sure if anyone could tell you a 'dissadvantage' of using a GEQ instruction unless you show us your application.

Dissadvantage of using the GEQ instruction as appossed to what?

Telling us that you use it in rung 1 and 2 means nothing, as we don't know what you have put in rung 1 and 2.

Post your ladder code here and let us see it, then maybe we can answer your question.

Give us some more information please.

Paul
 
Originally posted by cannonboy10
What are some disadvantages for using the "Greater than or Equal to" instruction in a rung to turn an output?

  1. It's harder to spell
  2. It uses some stock of small little boxes to draw the symbol
  3. It requires to go to the Comparison menu so lazy ones beware
  4. It re-start the eternal argument, personaly I tinck Elvis was the greatest
  5. It makes losy printout if the cartriges are not verticaly and horizontaly aligned
  6. It proves that dum questions will most of the time get dummer answers
    [/list=1]
 
I'm sorry guys,I read my posted message and I don't make sense so here I go again, firt output O/4 turns on when I close I/4 and the rest of the outputs turn on with 5 seconds intervals. And I'm sorry that I didn't post the rungs but I dont know how to aling them they get all over the place.


Rung #0 I have XIC I/4 at the end of the rung I have a TON t4:2 with Time base .01 preset 1500 and Acc O.Underneath the TON I have a Branch with output O/4


Rung #1 I have a GEQ source A: T4:2.ACC, Source B:500 at the beginning, and at the end I have Output O/3

Rung #2 I have a GEQ Source A:T4:2.ACC,Src. B: 100 at the end Output O/2.


Rung #3 I have a XIC T4:6/DN and at the end I have output O/1

Once again the question was; what are some disadvantages with this method in comparison with a seperate timer for the delay of each output?
:) I will really appreciate your help guys.thanks
 
Originally posted by cannonboy10 Fixed by Eric Nelson
Rung #0 I have XIC I/4 at the end of the rung I have a TON t4:2 with Time base .01 preset 1500 and Acc O.Underneath the TON I have a Branch with output O/4


Rung #1 I have a GEQ source A: T4:2.ACC, Source B:500 at the beginning, and at the end I have Output O/3

Rung #2 I have a GEQ Source A:T4:2.ACC,Src. B: 1000 at the end Output O/2.


Rung #3 I have a XIC T4:2/DN and at the end I have output O/1

But you are still asking us to do your homework. Make some effort by telling us what YOU think might be some disadvantages, and we'll be glad to offer pointers.

beerchug

-Eric

P.S. I would like to have a talk with your teacher... :rolleyes:
 
Trust me guys, I'm Breaking my head!!!

Thank you guys for trying to help, and also I understand that you guys want me to do my own homework, yeah I know, so far I haven't be able to find a disadvantage.

the only disadvantage using an individual timer for each output is is the fact that is harder to understand at the beginning.other then that,nothing. trust me I even get **** at my self for not be able to figure out, I'm just hoping the disadvantages are not so simple. well thanks once again. :) and have a good one!
 
Well then...

It seems to me you've given this some thought, at least, so I'll venture a few guesses.

The strength of the GEQ function is, it stays on after a trip point - useful in motion control for soft limits, etc.

The disadvantage is, it stays on after a trip point - if you want to remain on for a set distance, you need to use a second command to turn the output of the GEQ back off again.

In my experience, "set it and forget it" only applies to the Showtime Rotisserie, not PLCS. GEQ could leave a bit set that, later in the program, if you forget, could cause you some problems.

Other than that, I think your teacher is splitting hairs. The caution I give above could apply to almost any instruction in the PLC world.

Good Luck

TM
 
I'm not posting this as a huge disadvantage to the single-timer design, but rather as an example to start you thinking in another direction in case you might be stuck in a "can't see the forest because the trees are in the way" mindset.

In many PLCs, the timer's ACC register is a 16-bit integer. If you need a timer resolution of milliseconds, then the maximum time duration a single timer can handle is 65.535 seconds (32.767 seconds if the PLC treats the MSB as a sign bit).
 
Compared to what?

The key to your question:
What are some disadvantages for using the "Greater than or Equal to" instruction in a rung to turn an output?
is, as Paul pointed out, as opposed to what?

One possible answer to Paul's question is,
as opposed to serial timers.

Compare the following code:
YOURS

I:1/4 +---- TOM --+
---| |----+---| T4:2 |
| | PRE: 1500 |
| +-----------+
|
| O:0/4
+----------( )--

+---- GEQ --+ O:0/3
--| T4:2.ACC |------( )--
| 500 |
+-----------+


+---- GEQ --+ O:0/2
--| T4:2.ACC |------( )--
| 1000 |
+-----------+



Verses THIS

I:1/4 +---- TOM --+
---| |----+---| T4:4 |
| | PRE: 500 |
| +-----------+
| O:0/4
+----------( )--


T4:4.DN +---- TOM --+
----| |---+---| T4:3 |
| | PRE: 500 |
| +-----------+
|
| O:0/3
+----------( )--


T4:3.DN +---- TOM --+
----| |---+---| T4:2 |
| | PRE: 500 |
| +-----------+
|
| O:0/2
+----------( )--




NOW we can talk about advantages and disadvantages.

The first example (yours) uses just one timer, with various "Milestones" along the way. If we want to change delay for when O:0/3 comes on, from 5 seconds to 6 seconds, we just change the value in the GEQ, and only O:0/3 is affected. O:0/2 still comes on after 10 sec.

In the second method, if we want to change the delay for turing on O:0/3, we change the T4:4.PRE. But in doing so, we also affect when O:0/2 comes on. Now it comes on at 11 seconds after the button has been pressed, but delay BETWEEN the two remains the same.

Another difference. Timer presets are stored in registers. It is possoble to change those values without making changes to the program, using software or an HMI (Human Machine Interface - a specialized PC that only talks to/from PLCs and can't do anything else (like play Quake).

If you wanted to give the operator the abilty to change the timings, using timers allows that. In your example, the spaces are "hard-coded", and can't be changed without changing the program. (The GEQ can be modified to use registers instead of constants, giving it the same flexability as timers. But if you want to make those timings hard and fast, only the GEQ would allow that.



Or perhaps the answer to Paul's question is:
as opposed to using an EQU instruction.

In that case, the O:0/3 would only be on for the one scan where T4:2.ACC = 500 (if at all - depending on scan time, the ACC could equal 498 on one scan and 503 the next (if there was a 50 msec scantime). Thus it never EQUALS 500, and so O:0.3 never comes on. This type of mistake as bitten many a new PLC programmer.



The next time your professor (or anyone, for that matter) asks you to give the advantages or disadvantages of something, ask them "Compared to what"?
The reason your mind went blank is that you only had half of the problem.
 
Allen thank you!!!


thank you for the ladder diagram you make and thank you for explaining it all the way to the root , yeah I'm sure this will help alot and can I ask you one favor buddy? How did you make that ladder diagram? because I tried to make it but it just seem so confusing. so thakx ones again for the time of yours :)
 
I already posted once today how to post ladder to this forum.
Here's a reprint, to make it clear as Mudd:



As for posting ladder to this forum, just use the LADDER button immediately above the Your Reply: window when posting.

A dialog box will popup. Just add a space character and click OK.
There will then be two vB tags added to your message:
[ladder] [/ladder]

Everything between those two tags will be posted exactly as you lay them out. So use whatever characters you like (dashes and 'pipes'('|') are popular. Use spaces to line up the text, and you're off to the races.

You would write something like this:
[ladder]                  
2b ?
---| |---+---( )
|
2b |
---|/|---+
[/ladder]



And it would post like this:

2b ?
---| |---+---( )
|
2b |
---|/|---+


BTW, this is a quote from Shakespeare.



Follow THIS LINK to read the comments regarding the Shakespeare.



I did some checking, and this is the THIRD TIME I've explained ladder posting to you. Either I'm not doing a good job explaining, or you're not listening. Go to the Practice Posting Here section of the forum and play with this (and other vB tags).

In checking over the above explaination, I left something important out. If you are using Enhanced Mode for vB, then there will be no dialog box when you click on the LADDER button, and you will only get the [ladder] tag. Click on the Close Current Tag button to get the [/ladder] tag, or just type it by hand (it's just ASCII, after all).
 
Last edited:

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