1771-QB Questions

The Plc Kid

Member
Join Date
Feb 2009
Location
Macon, Georgia
Posts
3,233
Troubleshooting a 1771 QB Mopdule is the output a standard analog or pulse width output? I don't see wwhere the manual says either way but the qb can connect direct to a valve so i would think it would have to be?

Hopefully peter will see this?
 
The QB uses analog outputs. The control output must go to a valve amplifier to convert the control output to PWM. Servo valve require a simple voltage to current converter. Servo solenoid valves require ±10v that is converted to ±20-50 milliamps depending on the valve and manufacturer.

You should know that I had NOTHING to do with the QB module. Back in the late 80s and early 90s QB modules were my competition. Now we like to replace them.
 
These are standard proportional valves. The valve block broke and new one's were made plus a regen plate was added. Now the cylinder will not move and faults out the qb module.

The output of the qb goes to a parker PWD00A and from the parker module to the valve. I was trying to measure the qb output and was getting nothing? Thats why i asked if it was pulse width.

So i should be getting a standard 10 volts into the parker then? When the forward command is on.
 
I assume i should see -10 for reverse direction and +10 for forward direction? The voltage will vary depending on the velocity command being sent to the qb?
 
Usually

I assume i should see -10 for reverse direction and +10 for forward direction? The voltage will vary depending on the velocity command being sent to the qb?
Yes, usually, but sometimes a plumbing or wiring error will reverse that.

What I like to see is that the valve is connected to directly on the cylinder so when the valve gets +10 volts the actuator extends. Sometimes the valve isn't directly on the cylinder and and the plumbing is backwards so +10 makes the actuator retract. Also the wiring to the valve can be inverted so that even if the valve plumbing is correct the electrical signal is sees is inverted.
 
This machine has been changed several times over the years. Looks like at one time it jsut had qb modules and then the valve. Valve paperwork from old systems says OBE so i assume the old valves had on board electronics. Which from what i gather would be the amplifier which is now the parker pxd module.

I assume the amplifier is taking the voltage signal and giving the final power output to the valve.

Peter using one of your systems the delta would be controller amp and everything in one package correct? Delta would just need +/- 10 signal in? or 0-10 volt in and a digital input for direction extend / retract?
 
Why things are they way they are.

I assume the amplifier is taking the voltage signal and giving the final power output to the valve.
Yes, the motion controller sends a ±10 volt signal to the amplfier or the on board electronics. The amplifier or OBE then powers the solenoid that moves the spool.

Peter using one of your systems the delta would be controller amp and everything in one package correct?
No, those valve amplfiers require a lot of current and the noisy PWM does not mix well with analog signals of a motion controller or PLC for that matter.
Our modern controllers output ±10 volts. This works well with most servo solenoid valves with amplifiers. Servo vavles require a voltage to current converter. These are relativiely simple devices where you select the current output for ±10 volts.

Our first generation controllers were similar to the QB module and could output current directly but this turned out to be not such a good idea. The power to drive the valve can't be drawn from the back plane so an external current source had to be connected to the controller. If there was any wiring mistakes the controller was toast and there were too many toasted boards ( wiring mistakes ). The boards often had the traces on the board burned out so there was no repairing them. Our second generation controller and the ones we made for PLCs used only ±10 volt output so no external power had to be connected to the motion controller. Now few boards get returned unless they hook AC power to something.

Any external amplifier cards should be mounted in a j box out by the valves so the wires between the amplifier cards to the valves are as short as possible and away from any analog feed back devices. You don't want high current, fast switching PWM running long distance because it will induce noise on any adjacent analog signal or feed back signals. It is best to get either servo valves or servo solenoid valves with on board electronics and not separate amplifiers. Separate amplifiers are not a good idea because they must also be tuned to provide the best spool response. OBE amplifiers come tuned for that particular valve which is good.

I once made a very expensive trip to India because the motion controller was being blamed for causing random and wild oscillations. The Moog 27/200 valves had separate amplifiers. After a day I suspected the amplifier card and finally I finally caught a graph of the system oscillating with the inputs to the amplifier shorted together. At this point only the amplifier or valve could be blamed. I asked the people in charge if the amplifiers had been tuned and the reply I got was "they have to be tuned?" I/we spent the next couple of days tuning amplifiers and everything was fine after that. ( at least the hydraulic control part )

The moral of the story is if you buy servo solenoid valves get the ones with on board electronics.

Delta would just need +/- 10 signal in? or 0-10 volt in and a digital input for direction extend / retract?
[/quote]
Our controller would generate ±10 volts like the QB module to the amplfiler or valve if it has OBE. We just don't support the current output option for the reasons stated above.

You mentioned inputs and I thought we were talking about outputs.
Our controller has lots of options for feed back devices. Usually and old Temposonic rod start stop ( what we prefered ) or PWM or gated. QBs were usually used in PWM mode. Our controller can also use analog position feed back 4-20ma or 0-10v or ±10v or ±5 v. A modern option is to use SSI feedback. SSI is preferred because it is relatively noise immune and it provides high resolution feed back.

At this point it would be best to know exactly what you want to do and what kind of feed back device you are using.
 
The sled being moved has a lvdt mounted on it and that is the feedback to the QB module.

I was thinking of going with thc cylinder mount type of feedback like temposonic when we change this. Are temposonic type feedback devices available in SSI?

We have a very similar machine with newer controls that has the contrologix version of the qb module feeding a parker motion controller. The valves have OBE and there are psi transducers at each end of each cylinder that feedback into the parker motion controller. I don't understand the purpose of those but it works real well. The controller is european parker and no us suport or spares. We had it fried once on a plant pwer outage surge and the old plant is not on a ups system. took us 6 weeks to get a new one.

On the old system the parker amps are mounted in the control cabinet with about 75-100 feed of cable in between about as bad as it gets huh?

The guy that was involved with that design said they put those amps on because the old valves with OBE were hard to service as they are in a real confined area and the old OBE valves had the pots that you adjusted to tune it.

Does anyone make valves with OBE that can be tuned at a distance like a ethernet connection or something. We have some rexroth lik that but the connection is serial and you cant go that far.

Peter thanks also. I have learned more from this conversation than i have from "Hydraulic controls industry experts" and my own research over the last 2 weeks.

Thank You
 
The sled being moved has a lvdt mounted on it and that is the feedback to the QB module.
It is probably a Temposonic Magnetostrictive Displacement Transducer ( MDT ). LVDT are something much different.

I was thinking of going with thc cylinder mount type of feedback like temposonic when we change this. Are temposonic type feedback devices available in SSI?
We prefer the rods that go into the back of the cylinder and through the rod. That way there is no mechanical slop or backlash.

We have a very similar machine with newer controls that has the contrologix version of the qb module feeding a parker motion controller.
That doesn't make sense. The QB module doesn't need a parker motion controller. The parker controller may just be an amplifier.

The valves have OBE and there are psi transducers at each end of each cylinder that feedback into the parker motion controller. I don't understand the purpose of those but it works real well. The controller is european parker and no us suport or spares.
The parker controller is probably being used as an inner force or acceleration loop for the QB module. We can handle the force and position control with one controller.

On the old system the parker amps are mounted in the control cabinet with about 75-100 feed of cable in between about as bad as it gets huh?
That isn't good as the amplifiers will induce noise on any lines nearby.

The guy that was involved with that design said they put those amps on because the old valves with OBE were hard to service as they are in a real confined area and the old OBE valves had the pots that you adjusted to tune it.
The valve spool response should be tuned at the factory. There should be no need to tweak pots. If there is you remove the valve and tune the spool response at a bench. It takes a scope to monitor the spool feedback or a fast motion controller with the ability to log the data at high rates. This is what I had to do in India.

Does anyone make valves with OBE that can be tuned at a distance like a ethernet connection or something.
There are some DeviceNet valves but these usually use DeviceNet for control too so they aren't good for closed loop motion control.

Peter thanks also. I have learned more from this conversation than i have from "Hydraulic controls industry experts" and my own research over the last 2 weeks.
Thanks, you should know that my business is hydraulic motion control. I have been at this for a long time, 25+ years, and have lots of experience with different systems.
 

Similar Topics

I have a PLC5 5/15 that use to read a level probe (4-30mA) signal from a 1771-IFE analog input card. The probe has been out of use for probably 10...
Replies
6
Views
3,045
Preface: Kinda long, so I made section titles Intro: I just want to see if anyone here has seen anything similar. A PLC5-40 series C enhanced...
Replies
3
Views
365
Existing environment shown in attached photo (Existing.jpeg) Proposed Environment shown in attached photo (New.jpeg) I am migrating a PLC5 system...
Replies
0
Views
590
I have a 1756-L81e v32 using a DHRIO v7.001 in RIO scanner Driving (7) 1771 ASB Modules @ 115k baud. The Racks RPI are set at 48msecs. This system...
Replies
2
Views
902
Hello, I am setting up for practice and I am having trouble seeing the 1771 Scanner in RsLinx as well as Rsnetworx My setup: slot 0 : PLC-5/40E...
Replies
3
Views
976
Back
Top Bottom